For Christians
Taken from: http://www.geocities.com/athens/olympus/5599/hpq/ – I DID NOT WRITE THIS…
To have any credibility in my eyes, please reply with decent answers to junaman@gmail.com
The Hierophant’s Proselytiser Questionnaire
0. If necessary, use this space to explain any unique beliefs your sect has about the nature of your god, heaven, hell, the Bible, the Holy Spirit/Ghost, Satan, etc.
1. Explain why your god’s only son had to die so we can go to magic happy land when we croak.
2. Did everyone who died before Jesus died go to Hell? Justify your answer.
3. If a Catholic, justify the Inquisition and other persecutions of “heretics” throughout the centuries, concentrating on why the Pelagianists, the Priscillianists, and the Manichaeans were persecuted; if a Protestant, justify the witch trials and the way that Protestants constantly hunted down native Americans until there were so few that the government could simply take their land; if a member of an Eastern Orthodox church, justify the persecutions of the Old Believers after the reforms of the seventeenth century.
4. Explain why your sect (whether Catholic, Protestant, or Eastern Orthodox) pursued, tortured, and killed people who were not Christian.
5. Explain why your sect (whether Catholic, Protestant, or Eastern Orthodox) pursued, tortured, and killed people who were not members of your particular sect.
6. Explain why I should believe that your god is all-good when the only real information we have about him is the Bible, which clearly describes him as both good and evil. (See Isaiah 30:32, Luke 14:26, Numbers 31:17-18, Matthew 10:34, Amos 3:6, Deuteronomy 18:8, Deuteronomy 20:16, Exodus 20:5, Exodus 32:27, Isaiah 45:7, Psalms 52:5, Luke 22:36, and Jeremiah 18:11 for a small sample of Biblical passages which describe Jehovah as having an evil morality at times).
7. Explain why, when racism is clearly wrong, Jesus was clearly a racist (see Mark 7:25-29). NOTE: under no circumstances will I believe the idea that racism is morally acceptable.
8. Explain why, when discrimination against women is clearly wrong, the Bible clearly supports the oppression of women. Answering this question entails refuting 1 Cor 11 and 1 Tim 2:11-15. NOTE: under no circumstances will I believe that discrimination against women solely on the basis of sex is morally acceptable.
9. Explain why, when slavery is clearly wrong, the Bible clearly supports slavery. Answering this question entails refuting 1 Peter 2:18. NOTE: under no circumstances will I believe that slavery is an acceptable way to run a society.
10. Explain why children should submit to their parents’ decisions even when those decisions are clearly evil. Answering this question entails refuting Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Proverbs 13:24, and Hebrews 12:7-8.
11. Explain why, if your god loves us all, more than half of us are going to Hell after we die. Specifically, refute or explain the following words of Christ, as presented in the New Testament: “Many are called but few are chosen,” and “Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way that leadeth unto salvation, and few there be that find it.” If your god loves all of us, couldn’t he find a better way?
12. Explain what type of offense could possibly justify eternal, unbearable torture in Hell; if your sect does not believe in Hell, then refute every passage in the Old and New Testaments which describes Hell (such as 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 and Revelation 20:15). Do not exceed 100 words.
13. Explain how your god can be both just and merciful, when these terms apparently contradict each other.
14. Explain why possession by demons and/or other evil spirits was common during the time of Jesus, but hardly mentioned in the Old Testament, and apparently has been explained completely away today by things such as epilepsy and schizophrenia.
15. Explain why, if the personality resides in the soul, things like drugs and brain damage can affect someone’s personality.
16. If heaven is a place where everyone is perfectly happy, then explain how I could be happy in heaven if I had loved ones in Hell.
17. What is Heaven like?
18. What is Hell like?
19. Explain why original sin exists. Why should I be eternally tortured for something that a pair of naked fruit-munching simpletons did in a garden over six thousand years ago? If you believe that children are born stained because they were conceived sexually, explain why I would be punished for something my parents did by your merciful and just god. If this does not apply to your sect, explain why.
20. Explain why getting dunked in or sprinkled with water will prevent me from being eternally tortured for the actions of the naked fruit-munching simpletons mentioned in #19.
21. If your god did not want Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, why did he put the tree in the garden of Eden (and at the center, no less)? Was it for shade? If so, why use something so dangerous as a shade tree? If the purpose of the tree was to tempt Adam and Eve, explain why it’s OK for your god to engage in a practice that our modern-day courts of law refer to as “entrapment.”
22. Explain why sex, potentially one of the most wonderful, beautiful things in human nature, is considered “bad” by your particular sect. If your sect does not consider sex to be “bad,” then refute Matthew 19:12, 1 Corinthians 7 (particularly verses 1 and 9), Galatians 5:17, 1 Thessalonians 4:3, James 1:14-15, Matthew 24:38, Luke 17:27, and Revelation 14:4.
23. Explain why, if Jesus was perfect, he thought that the end of the world was coming soon, when it has clearly not come yet. See Matthew 16:27-28.
24. Explain why some people (James, Peter, Paul, Thomas, etc.) should get convincing physical proof of miracles, while the rest of us are supposed to take these happenings on faith.
25. Why are the stories of the resurrection inconsistent?
26. If you are a Protestant or a member of an Eastern Orthodox church, explain why you are still using the Catholic Bible, which was formalized by a vote among (supposedly divinely inspired) cardinals and bishops in the fourth century CE, when you disagree with the idea that the Pope, who is higher in the Catholic hierarchy, is divinely inspired; if a Catholic, explain why your church accepts the canonical Bible while rejecting the Apocrypha (do not use the “divinely inspired” argument: Because I am not religious, I will not be able to accept it).
27. If your god is kind and gentle, why do some animals have to eat meat?
28. If your god is kind and gentle, why did he create parasites?
29. If your god wants us to worship him through our own free will, why does he threaten us with Hell? If you have someone threatening you with a punishment, it isn’t free will.
30. Why would your god deliberately cause sinners to sin (cf. Romans 9:15-23 and numerous parts of the book of Exodus where Jehovah says, “I will harden Pharaoh’s heart.”). Are these sinners still responsible for the sins which your god forces them, against their will, to commit? Justify your answer.
31. If Jesus did have to die, why did someone (specifically, Judas) have to be damned in order accomplish the death and resurrection of Jesus? Jesus was at least a volunteer for the cross; I doubt that your god asked Judas if he was willing to go to Hell so that the resurrection could be accomplished.
32. If Judas was willing to go to Hell for humanity (see #31), didn’t he make more of a sacrifice than Jesus, who spent only three hours in pain? Shouldn’t we then be worshipping Judas?
33. Why should we accept the words of the gospel writers as truth when they are known to be liars? (See Romans 3:7).
34. Do you believe that your god is anti-homosexual? If so, explain why he would create homosexuals in the first place. If not, refute or explain away Leviticus 20:13 and Romans 1:26-27.
35. Explain why prayer is OK, but spell casting is not, when both amount to the same thing: requesting that a superior supernatural force to intercede in a way that would be impossible according to the normally accepted laws of physics.
36. According to the Gospels, from the Christian standpoint, Jesus was the most important person to ever live. From the Roman standpoint, Jesus was a huge pain in the ass because of his political activities. Explain why nothing was written about his life for over thirty years after his death, and nothing except the Gospels was written until the third century CE.
37. Explain why you believe a person whose life is so poorly documented (see #36) was even ever born.
38. Define the word “Christ,” including references to the pagan origins and meaning of the word.
39. Explain why Jesus, who was anti-Gentile (see Mark 7:25-29) and anti-sex (see Luke 14:26 and Matthew 19:12), would want to be anointed with oil in a pagan sexual rite after his death (see your definition for #38).
40. In light of Matthew 10:34, explain why Jesus is called the Prince of Peace.
41. The name “Jesus” has been anglicized. What was the original (Hebrew) name of Jesus? Where did you get this information? This is a bonus question.
42. Why is it that the life of Jesus was so similar to the lives of pagan Christs, particularly Herakles, Dionysios, and Asklepios?
43. If your god requires that people believe in him and follow his orders through their own free will, why do Christians push their views on public policy?
44. Explain why being a good Christian requires you to push your beliefs on others. If you do not believe that you have to push your views on others (no matter how much this annoys them), explain why you do not believe this despite the fact that the New Testament seems to suggest that you must do this to get to Heaven (for instance, in Matthew 28:19-20).
45. Explain why spreading the “truth of Christ” requires you to spread lies about other religions, such as the idea that Wiccans (so-called “white witches”) worship the Christian devil. (Incidentally, they don’t, and this rumor has been persistently spread by Christians since the second century CE).
46. At no point in the four Gospels did Jesus claim to be the son of your god. (He said “son of man” quite frequently, and at one point referred to himself as “a son of god,” but that was a common Hebrew expression at the time. Someone who was “a son of god” was a Jew. This reflected the Israelites’ belief that they were the chosen people of your god. See Job 1:6). Why, then, do you believe that Jesus was divine? If you don’t believe that Jesus was divine, then why do you call yourself a Christian?
47. Given the fact that Jesus did not say anything original (the Golden Rule and the “turn the other cheek” idea were stolen from Buddhism; and the Beatitudes were common in the Jewish devotional literature at the time), why do you see Jesus as such a great thinker/philosopher/ethicist?
48. When Jesus said, “Resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also,” why do you suppose that most Christians fight for their rights? To put it another way, why don’t we, as a country of 85% Christians, let the government abuse us?
49. Why are so many Christian holidays on the same day as Pagan holidays? Couldn’t the early Church fathers have converted pagans only by appealing to their reason and/or faith if Christianity is the true religion?
50. Explain how your god can be “just and merciful” in light of Exodus 20:5.
51. Do you believe that the Old Testament should be accepted as part of Christian theology? If so, explain how you can worship such a cruel, sadistic asshole (see Numbers 31:17-18, Deuteronomy 20:16, Proverbs 20:30, Amos 3:6, Deuteronomy 13:8, Psalms 3:7, Psalms 52:5, etc.); if not, explain how you can believe that Jesus is the promised savior sent by your god without the messianic prophecies and the ruling rights of the line of David, both of which are in the Old Testament in books such as Isaiah, Zechariah, Daniel, Psalms, etc. (as opposed to, say, believing that Jesus was an irritating nut wandering around saying things that people didn’t like much).
52. Explain why your “just and merciful” god sent bears to kill forty-two children who called his prophet Elisha “baldhead.” (See 2 Kings 2:23-24).
53. If prostitution is wrong, why are there so many examples of it in Genesis? (For instance, Gen 19:8, where Lot offers his daughters to a mob so that his guests can avoid gang rape).
54. What is the sin that people committed that is so incredibly bad that your god had to become flesh and die to correct?
55. Are all members of other faiths bad? Are they all damned to Hell? Justify your answer with quotes from the Bible.
56. Are all atheists/agnostics/humanists bad? Are they all damned to Hell? Justify your answer with quotes from the Bible.
57. What was your motive in proselytizing to me?
58. Where is Heaven?
59. Where is Hell?
60. Why don’t animals go to heaven or hell when they die? What makes us so special?
61. Why does Satan try to get peoples’ souls?
62. Once Satan has someone’s soul, what does he do with it?
63. Is your god perfect? Justify your answer.
64. Where does our soul stay while we are alive?
65. Explain how you can believe in Satan when your faith is directly descended from the Jewish faith, when the Jews did not even believe in Satan until they absorbed the Egyptian god Set while they were captives in Egypt.
66. Why do evil people often prosper? Justify your answer.
67. Why do good people so often fail to prosper? Justify your answer.
68. When the end of the world comes, will your god raise our actual bodies, or just our souls? Explain.
69. Explain why your god lets airplanes with sinless infants on board crash.
70. What is sin, exactly?
71. If Jesus is perfect, justify the parable of the fig tree (Matthew 21:17-19, Mark 11:14-20).
72. Explain why Christians have harassed Wiccans (”white witches”) for almost two thousand years now, when the central rule of the Wiccan ethical system is “an it harm no one, do what thou wilt.”
73. Explain why Christians (yes, that includes all branches of Christianity) have spread the lie that Jews put Jesus to death when, in actuality, it was the Romans who put Jesus to death. (For a good example of New Testament anti-semetism, see 1 Thessalonians 2:15).
74. Explain why your god created humans as imperfect, then set his standards so high that no one could possibly live up to them, then punishes us for not living up to his standards. Doesn’t this also constitute “entrapment?”
75. If we are created in your god’s image and likeness (Gen 1:27), how can we also be imperfect?
76. Why was it OK for the ancient Israelites to sacrifice animals to their god, while it is wrong for modern religions to sacrifice animals to their gods? Justify your answer.
77. Why would your god confuse people? (See 1 Sam 7:10 and Gen 11:9). Isn’t life confusing enough already?
78. Why would your god cause blindness, deafness, and dumbness? (See Ex 4:11)
79. Why would your god want to damn people by making them believe false things? (See 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).
80. Should the book of Revelation be taken literally? Explain your answer.
81. Would it be good for men to castrate themselves? Justify your answer, taking Matthew 19:12 into account.
82. What exactly is faith?
83. All of the various Christian sects ignore parts of the Bible, usually because those parts of the Bible are inconvenient. Explain which parts of the Bible your sect ignores, and explain why it is OK to ignore those parts of the Bible.
84. Why did your god allow Satan to do evil things to Job (Job 2:7 etc.)? Wouldn’t your god better spend his time punishing unbelievers?
85. If Jesus and his father are one (John 10:30), then why does Jesus have to pray (i.e. Matthew 26:39)?
86. Explain your belief in heaven in light of Job 7:9 and Ecclesiastes 9:5.
87. Christ giving himself up on the cross was a great gesture, true, but wouldn’t it have been more sensible for him to continue spreading his message until he died a natural death? Answer this question in light of your answer to question #1.
88. What is your interpretation of the temptation of Christ by Satan in the desert (Matthew 4:5-8, Luke 4:5-9)?
89. In view of Matthew 6:5-6, shouldn’t prayer in public schools be discouraged? Support your answer with scripture quotes.
90. Do you feel that the last words of Christ were significant? If so, why do the four gospels attribute three different sentences to Christ as his last? (Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34: “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?”; Luke 23:46: “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit”; John 19:30: “It is finished”).
91. Matthew and Mark say that the last words of Christ were, in Hebrew, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” This has traditionally been translated as, “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?” However, a more accurate translation would be, “My El, My El, why has thou forsaken me?” El is the name of a specific pagan god. Why would Jesus call out to a pagan god at the moment of his death?
92. A commonly recited litany in many forms of Christianity is “The LORD is my shepherd.” (Psalm 23:1). Given the fact that the only reasons that people raise sheep are to rob them of their clothes and to kill them for meat, and the fact that sheep will often follow the shepherd to their destruction, do you think that this is any appropriate image for your god? Justify your answer.
93. Why is the theory of the big bang any more (or less) likely that the idea that your god created the universe? Justify your answer. NOTE: I admit that science has not explained where the original supercondensed particle came from, but no one has ever explained where your god came from, either.
94. If your god is everywhere at the same time, and hell is the absence of (or separation from) your god, how can he be omnipresent?
95. In the Genesis story, your god tells Adam and Eve that the day they eat from the tree of knowledge they will surely die (Gen 2:17). The devil tells them that they will not die, but that their eyes would be opened and they would know the difference between good and evil (Gen 3:5). Wasn’t Satan telling the truth here? Is your god a liar? Justify your answer in light of Jeremiah 20:7 and Ezekiel 14:9.
96. If Lucifer is not as powerful as your god, then he cannot possibly be omnipresent. How could he possibly get as many followers as you seem to think he has?
97. The Bible constantly describes your god as male. In view of the fact that your god supposedly created everything, and creation is very much a female function, isn’t this at least a little bit absurd? Justify your answer.
98. In light of the Trinity, angels, the Virgin Mary, etc., isn’t Christianity polytheistic? If the Trinity is three who are one, why the three names? Justify your answer.
99. Have you read the entire Bible? If not, how can you be devoted enough to try and convert me to a religion that you don’t know that much about? Isn’t knowing as much as possible about something necessary to understanding it? Isn’t understanding something necessary to being completely devoted to it?
100. Why is 2 Kings 19 exactly identical to Isaiah 37?
101. Is Jesus’s three days in Hell really an ultimate sacrifice, when more than half of humanity going to spend eternity there (see question #11)?
102. If your sect considers the King James Bible to be the official and/or authoritative translation, justify this in light of the fact that when King James commissioned his translation to be poetic rather than accurate. How can you possibly use an inaccurate translation as your reference for what is/is not the word of your god? If your sect does not use the King James Bible, what translation do they use? Justify the use of that particular translation.
103. Assume that I do not believe that Jesus died for my sins, or that if he did, that necessarily means I will go to your heaven. Name one thing that Jesus ever did for me.
104. Before Mary was knocked up by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, she was never asked for her consent. (She was warned; see Luke 1:31). Mary was also asleep when your god knocked her up; this strongly suggests that he didn’t want her to protest. Does this mean that Mary was raped by your god? Do you think rape is wrong? Explain.
105. According to Luke, Mary knew that she was pregnant with the Messiah. Living in the times she lived in, she must have known the scripture; therefore, she must have known that he would have to suffer horribly during his life. Was it moral for Mary to carry her baby to term, or would it have been more humane for her to have an abortion? Explain.
106. If it was foretold that Jesus was to be crucified, and if he knew this, and if he was the son of your god, why did he do everything he could to avoid being crucified? (See, for instance, Matthew 26:39).
107. If the Holy Spirit/Ghost is the father of Jesus (Luke 1:35), then why is the central figure of your trinity called God the Father?
108. Mary and Jehovah were never joined in wedlock. Does it bother you that Jesus is technically a bastard?
109. The original Hebrew word for the Holy Ghost/Spirit includes the idea that the Holy Spirit/Ghost is female in gender. Isn’t this rather silly when you consider the fact that the Holy Ghost/Spirit is actually the father of Jesus (Luke 1:35)?
110. Matthew 28:11-15 contains an account of a conspiracy between the Jews and the Roman soldiers to spread the story that the disciples stole the body of Christ. How could Matthew have known about this, since no Jews or Romans would have admitted to it? If it was such a transparent conspiracy that an outsider could have seen it, why didn’t the other three gospels mention it? Why didn’t the Roman soldiers get into trouble?
111. Jews believe that people are basically good people and can work to overcome their sinful tendencies. Most Christian sects, following the teaching of Psalm 51:5, 1 Kings 8:46, Ezekiel 18:4, Isaiah 59:2, and Psalm 143:2, believe that people are completely debased and hopelessly lost in sin, and that only your god can lift us out of this state if he decides to bestow his gift of grace on us? Isn’t this an incredibly negative view of people? Isn’t Judaism a more mature faith just for this reason?
112. How do you, as an individual, feel about Psalm 51:5?
113. What does your sect teach about Psalm 51:5 (and 1 Kings 8:46, etc.), predestination, and similar matters?
114. Don’t you think that the idea that no matter what we do, we can never be good and righteous without help from your god (Isaiah 64:6) fosters an unnatural and unhealthy dependency on him?
115. Revelation 22:16 says that Jesus is the “offspring of David.” Mary was not descended from David, but Joseph was. Doesn’t this mean that Jesus wasn’t the son of your god at all, but the (mortal and not divine) son of Joseph?
116. What would the correct thing to do be if your god gave you a command that was harmful and/or destructive to you? A common argument, which comes from Paul, states that because clay pots don’t complain about what the potter does with them, people shouldn’t complain about what their maker (supposedly, your god) does with them, but this completely ignores the vitally important argument that clay pots have no sense of self-awareness and cannot think or feel love, pain, anger, etc. If you want to make this argument, you have to deal with this difference.
117. What (or who) does your sect believe the number 666 represents? Justify your answer.
118. If your god is “just and merciful,” why would he take Solomon’s kingdom away from Solomon’s son while not punishing Solomon, when it was Solomon himself who committed the sin of idolatry? What did Solomon’s son do to deserve punishment? (See 1 Kings 11:12).
119. Why is Solomon commonly considered to be the paragon of wisdom by many Christians, when he constantly sinned against your god (1 Kings 11:4-10, etc.)? Personally, if I had a god talking to me, I’d do what he said.
120. Don’t you think that an anti-sex position (see question #22) is a rather silly position for your sect to take when the biblical book “Song of Solomon” is a piece of erotic poetry? (For instance, in Song of Solomon 8:2, the bridegroom proposes to “drink of spiced wine of the juice of the pomegranate.” The pomegranate was a symbol of the female genitalia, and the “spiced wine” represented menstrual blood).
121. Does it bother you that the cross, supposedly a Christian symbol, was actually stolen from the Egyptians? Why or why not? (The Egyptian cross, the ankh, was a male-female symbol similar in concept to the yin-yang. When the Christians stole the ankh from the Egyptians, they removed the female symbol, or yoni, leaving only the masculine symbol– a subtle way of reinforcing the idea that women are lesser beings).
122. How do you explain that Christians are twice as likely to have sadomasochistic tendencies as non-christians?
123. What is the incredibly important doctrinal difference that requires the fighting between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland?
124. Even if your god did create the universe, why does he want to be worshipped? Is your god an egomaniac?
125. What are your beliefs concerning Wicca? (”white witchcraft”). How much do you know about Wicca?
126. What do you think the word “Satanist” means?
127. How do you explain the fact that the word “blood” occurs over 400 times in the Bible? Isn’t this a rather savage way to write a book that is supposed to be at the center of an ethical system?
128. Throughout the Bible, your god commands his followers to wage merciless war on unbelievers (Luke 22:36, Deuteronomy 13:8, Exodus 20:23-25, Deuteronomy 20:16, Matthew 10:34, Numbers 31:17-18, etc). If you are one of his followers, why aren’t you out waging merciless war on unbelievers?
129. Numbers 23:21 says that your god “has not seen wickedness in Israel.” If this is so, explain why your god burned Israelites for complaining (Num 11:1), sent a plague against them for eating the meat he had given them (Num 11:33), why he burned people for using incense (Num 16:35), why he sent a plague against the Israelites who accused Moses of wrongdoing (Num 16:44-49), and why he sent fiery snakes among the Israelites (Num 21:5). Is your god a liar, or was it just more convenient for him to lie at that particular place and time, or what?
130. What was it that was so bad about eating an apple that death had to result from that act?
131. What was it about humanity’s torturing and killing of your god’s only son that made your god so happy that he again promised eternal life to everyone who believed in him.
132. How do you explain that Matthew and Luke give different genealogies for Jesus?
133. Matthew says that the prophecy given in Matthew 27:9 was given by Jeremiah. How do you explain that this prophecy was not given by Jeremiah at all, but by Zechariah (in Zech 11:12)?
134. Matthew says (in Matt 2:21) that Jesus dealt in Nazareth so that he could fulfill a prophecy stating that the Messiah would be called a Nazarene. Where is this prophecy in the Old Testament?
135. Matthew says that on the triumphant entry into Jerusalem, Jesus was riding on an ass and a colt (Matt 21:7). How do you explain that the original prophecy (Zech 9:9) stated that Jesus would be riding on only one ass, and the other gospel writers place Jesus only on one ass (Mark 11:7, Luke 19:35, and John 12:15)?
136. In Matthew 1:23, Matthew has the angel say that Jesus would be born of a virgin. However, the prophecy that Matthew is referring to, Isaiah 7:14, uses the Hebrew word almah, which simply means a young woman. It has nothing to do with sexual purity; the Hebrew word for virgin is bethulah. How do you explain this?
137. Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Where is the fulfillment of this prophecy in the New Testament?
138. Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus would be called Immanuel, which means “God with us.” Why does no one (not even his parents) call him Immanuel at any point in the New Testament?
139. How many inconsistencies in the Bible, other than those mentioned in this paper, do you know of? Cite chapter and verse for as many as you have room for.
140. If even the contemplation of sinning is a sin (i.e. “sinning in your heart”; see, for example, Matthew 5:28) and if Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert (Matthew 4:5-8, Luke 4:5-9), how can you say that Jesus was without sin?
141. Does your sect believe that the existence of your god can be established through a formal proof? Why or why not?
142. Pick a famous argument for the existence of your god, then criticize that argument. (Assume I mean for you to use the academic definition of criticize).
143. Pick an argument against the existence of your god. If it is not a famous argument, copy it down here. Criticize this argument. (Assume I mean for you to use the academic definition of the word criticize).
144. What does your sect think of the government? Read Paul’s letter to the Romans, chapter 13. Now what do you think of the government? If necessary, reconcile the two views.
145. What is your definition of the word Christian?
146. Why do you think it is that the ancient Greeks, who had a very liberal sexual morality, had many fewer sex crimes (compared to the population) than the United States, which is 85% Christian?
147. If someone accepts Jesus, and is “saved,” but then turns away from Jesus, is that person still saved?
148. Where did your god come from?
149. What are the requirements for being saved? Some sects says that faith alone is enough; others say that faith without works is dead. The Bible supports both these viewpoints. What does your sect think?
Where did you get this? I’m sure you didn’t spend a whole day writing this, and I’m sure you haven’t read the Bible…
Comment by zomgmouse — 27 August, 2006 #
I have read the Old Testament (puke) – it is rather hilarious… like Douglas Adams yet more, you know, nonsensical
I got this from Hierophant… look it up on google…
Comment by junaman — 27 August, 2006 #
well… junaman, the problems all have something to do with humans…
Take this as a mathematical equation
god = perfect, or theta, alpha and omega, the beginning and the end
human – god =0 (1)
human + god =infinity (2)
i’ll come back to you on that… havent thought of any equations to solve…
Comment by creative — 29 August, 2006 #
How does human – god = 0????
wtf????
if god is perfect and human’s are not. would not god- human =
Comment by junaman — 29 August, 2006 #
Are ANY christians out there going to respond to this??
I dont think you can, but i encourage you to have a go so that junaman can tear you apart!
Your religion revolts me!
Comment by you no — 31 August, 2006 #
Wow! This is a really good questionaire. I am a Christian and feel very compelled to answer this! Give me a little time to fill this all out.
I really like the sarcasm in some of the questions. Like the tree used for shade thing… classic!
Comment by Jonathan — 2 September, 2006 #
juam man
Comment by me — 3 September, 2006 #
ok, first of fuck you why don’t you actually post the quotes in stead of the numbers? i hope you go to hell and get raped by a big black gay man
Comment by me — 3 September, 2006 #
Quotes? Numbers?
Are you too lazy to go look all of them up.. cbf going through you own holy book???
Shame
Comment by junaman — 3 September, 2006 #
Oh, and being big, black and gay will most certainly warrant him a place in hell won’t it…..
FUCK YOU
Comment by junaman — 3 September, 2006 #
Brilliant! I wish I could have thrown this in my Religious Studies teacher’s face…
Comment by The Gibbon — 5 September, 2006 #
Juna Man-A fantastic post. Found myself nodding a long to practically every item on there.
I used to consider myself (nominally at least) a “Christian”, but I never really cared much for church, or the organised part of it. Nowadays I don’t consider myself a Christian at all. A book that totally changed my views on christianity was ‘Holy Blood, Holy Grail (it was in the news recently due to the court case between it’s authors and Dan “Da Vinci Code” Brown.). ‘Holy Blood, Holy Grail’ had a huge impact on me, and changed my beliefs for good.
It basically questions everything, pretty much the same way you have. Would definitely recommend it!
Sorry to have rambled, just wanted to commend you on such a brilliant post.
Oh and this? “i hope you go to hell and get raped by a big black gay man” Hilarious. I’m sorry, but I’m guessing you call yourself a christian, judging by the amount of vitriol aimed at Juna Man? What’s the deal with the homphobia and racism hmm? How insanely hypocritical.I thought your God commands you to “love thy neighbour”.I don’t see much love in that sentence, that’s for sure.
Comment by jennacb — 6 September, 2006 #
umm lol… nice questions. im sure no one could possible give u valid solid anser to each and every one of your questions. i kinda consider myself christian but, at time church + people piss me off so ill jus leave it at i believe that there is a god. but, i guess the best way to get answers to ur questions is to simply …. kill yourself and see what happens (not to be an ass)and if god appears i guess he’ll pull it up online and answer each and every question lol
Comment by LOL — 12 September, 2006 #
Hey,
I feel bad that you and so many others feel so negatively about Christianity. Your questions, at least the majority, are impossible to answer properly. There is a certain mystery to any religion; and you either get it or you don’t. I’ll pray for you nonetheless.
Comment by Dave — 12 September, 2006 #
No one owns the definition of “Christian” even though its logical definition is follower of Christ. To believe in Christ and follow his teachings does not necessitate belief in what Paul said of him (and women and gays). It does not necessitate the belief in other authors of books in the Bible.
Although many (most, I’d say) Christians aren’t true pure followers of Christ, that does not invalidate the teachings of Christ. Just because I hate the Crusades and close-minded evangelicals, does not mean that Jesus or his teachings are flawed.
To assume so is akin to hating the New York Yankees because you hate Yankees fans. I hate most Radiohead fans, but I still think Radiohead is a great band. Likewise, most Christians piss me off, but I still align myself with the teachings of Jesus.
Comment by pablo — 12 September, 2006 #
Juanaman…
I am a Christian, but I am not part of a religion. Christianity is about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and accepting him into your heart by faith. By the sounds of it you have been hurt by religion and I am sorry that you have been confused by religion’s relationship to God and the bible. The bible was given to us as a guide, but it doesn’t say that things or even Christians have always been good and perfect. But it is more about a walk/the path of life that we must all choose which road to go. The straight and narrow or the path into ourselves that only ends in emptiness. I won’t argue with you or anyone else on this blog because there is no need. But I do want to apologize to you because aparently you have not met the real Jesus yet. I do have hope that one day you will meet him and get to know him personally.
No matter what you think, believe or feel know that your life matters and I wish you the best. I wouldn’t worry as much about arguing the bible and the faith of others, as much as deciding and living out your own choices. Let God speak to you and love you and to show you the love he has for all of us – the good and the evil. His love is the cause of the freewill in which you question so much.
If you are looking for more answers I would like to recommend a couple of websites…
http://www.rickwarren.com
http://www.billygraham.com
Comment by - — 13 September, 2006 #
God loves the sinner, but detests the sin. This is no contradiction, they are two different things and he can love us even in our shortcomings because he chooses to. that’s true love.
Comment by - — 13 September, 2006 #
Apply the last comment to homosexuality. Why are people homosexual if “God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve”.
It is scientifically proven that people are born as homosexuals, and that our supposedly God-given Free Will has nothing to do with it.
Assuming God made the 1 in 10 of us who are not straight, isn’t it fair to assume that homosexuality is not a sin? Or, of course, we always just say that your God got some things wrong. Namely the millions of gay men and women on the planet that have been born since the beginning of man.
In America alone there are currently 600,000 gay couples. Now think how big China and India are…
The Disciples get their arse handed to them over homosexuality.
Comment by porcelainmonkey — 13 September, 2006 #
148. Where did your god come from?
Not that I am a Christian, but I am pretty sure this is their answer.
God is everlasting right? Been here from the word go. So he didn’t come from anywhere. He was where he was all along.
It is like when someone asks, “What came before the Big Bang?” Nothing! There was nothing to come from.
You just have to get your head around the concept. God – if he exists – has been around forever.
Comment by porcelainmonkey — 13 September, 2006 #
“Your questions, at least the majority, are impossible to answer properly.”
I liked what Dave said here. In reality this post breaks many rules of logic. fallacies.
To cite an example; Here is your line of reasoning;
10. Explain why children should submit to their parents’ decisions even when those decisions are clearly evil. Answering this question entails refuting Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Proverbs 13:24, and Hebrews 12:7-8.
Children are asked to obey their parents and that is clearly in the Bible. However, when you get to your second premise, you know the one “even when those decisions are clearly evil.” One has to suppose that if a parent was evil or asked a child to do an evil deed in the scripture that God would be angry if they disobeyed. However there is nothing in scripture that states that children are to listen to parents who ask them to do an evil deed. Actually the opposite is shown many times. Saul asked his son Jonathon to kill David. Jonathon disobeyed Saul but never received any kind of punishment. (That is just one example there are many in scripture.)
First premise is true
Second premise is false
= false conclusion
The rule? all premises have to be true in order for the conclusion to be true.
Most of what you do here is appeal to the pity of the audience and thus try to create an emotional angry picture of Christians.
Is it valid to ask today’s Christian why we believe in slavery? Why we want to punish people different than us? etc.. when in all reality none of that is true. I don’t see any Christian’s on the news trying to get slavery back on board – shooting bullets in the back of Native American’s. (Which by the way you really should read your history on that deal – protestant brought with them a nasty little deal called smallpox but that was hardly on purpose.) Protestants are not paying fiscal restitution to today’s Indian – our Government is – there really is a valid reason for that. Our Government hardly came in and did a mop up job on them that you seem to imply there.
You ask people to answer for the history of religious leaders that were simply wrong. No one can justify wrong acts in history. It’s like asking German’s to justify the holocaust when the leaders are long dead.
That’s fine – after you can answer this. How do you justify being an American citizen and be proud of that when obviously your forefathers raped, mutilated, abused and violated people of color?
There are some really valid questions here but it’s a difficult read because of all the emotional appeal in this it’s difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff.
If you could do that then it would be very easy to answer.
Comment by aullori — 13 September, 2006 #
@aullori
Regrading your first point about the two premises, actually it goes something like this.
First premise says it is right
Second premise says it is wrong =
Contradiction…
“Is it valid to ask today’s Christian why we believe in slavery? Why we want to punish people different than us? etc.. when in all reality none of that is true. I don’t see any Christian’s on the news trying to get slavery back on board”
Yes, because your holy book tells you to do so… and if you think that that is absurd (like me), then how can you believe anything else the book preaches… The main point of these questions is to show bible inconsistencies, absurdities and hypocrisies.
Same thing goes for justifying the holocaust…
If the same fascist government that started it was in power today, yes they would need to justify it, but fascism was wiped out, and asking Germans now to justify it is absurd because they don’t adhere to the philosophy that started it.
Christianity is the same religion today as the one that did all those bad things in the name of religion… so yes, they need justifying…
@ -
“God loves the sinner, but detests the sin.”
The question is what is sin?
Comment by junaman — 13 September, 2006 #
Dave PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont waste your time preying for any of us…dont waste your time preying…Its about as big an insult as you can give to me to prey for me when I absolutely hate the ideas you worship and I hate you christians.
If I had it my way you’d all be dead…
So PLEASE dont prey for me or ill have to burn your church{or other place of worship} in the name of the truth.
Comment by shrinkley — 13 September, 2006 #
Let’s start here;
“God loves the sinner, but detests the sin.”
The question is what is sin?
See this is what I meant that is a valid question without emotional appeal and thus it is easy to read and therefore answer.
Tech. speaking sin is defined by missing the mark – many references in the new testament use archery as an example and cut down to it’s simplest form sin simply means not hitting the bulls eye.
“Regrading your first point about the two premises, actually it goes something like this.
First premise says it is right
Second premise says it is wrong =
Contradiction…”
I kind of see your point here – only the second premise you mention isn’t in the Bible – nowhere. I’d challenge you to find a scripture that states that children are to obey the “evil” wishes of their parents.
“Is it valid to ask today’s Christian why we believe in slavery? Why we want to punish people different than us? etc.. when in all reality none of that is true. I don’t see any Christian’s on the news trying to get slavery back on board”
Your Quote; Yes, because your holy book tells you to do so… and if you think that that is absurd (like me), then how can you believe anything else the book preaches… The main point of these questions is to show bible inconsistencies, absurdities and hypocrisies.
See that’s my point – the Bible does not tell us to have slaves. (Not even in the scripture the quy quoted) Nowhere. The Bible does not tell us to kill Indians or anything that you claim here. The Bible told no one to hang “witches.”
In all religions – people have many times confused the difference between listening to the voice of God and thinking they are the voice of God. Arrogance. This is a mistake all religions have made. Your argument may create a strong point to not believe in any religion and that’s perfectly fine and reasonable. However this is not unique to Christianity.
There are no inconsistencies in scripture there is a sincere lack of knowledge on the part of us as human beings – that I can buy. However, I’ve found after many years of study that I often misinterpret scripture and I thank God I do. It gives me reason to keep in contact with the Author.
Your quote; Christianity is the same religion today as the one that did all those bad things in the name of religion… so yes, they need justifying…
Christianity is not the same religion as it was yesterday. That’s silly. I haven’t heard the National news cover any recent witch hangings. And I keep pretty abreast of current news.
My last point? I don’t follow a religion I follow my God – my God happens to be Christ. So to say, “your religion….” blah blah over and over in the famous words of Soren Kierkegaard
“Once you label me you negate me.”
Comment by aullori — 14 September, 2006 #
lol shrinkly – “prey”? that’s pedophiles, not christians. >_>
Comment by fat — 18 September, 2006 #
Gees sorry! fatty!
And ill leave out the crack about preists that were all thinking that I’d write!
Comment by shrinkley — 18 September, 2006 #
kiss my ass atheistic dickhead
Comment by italianstallion — 20 September, 2006 #
Umm… why?
Because I just owned everything you believe in?
Comment by junaman — 20 September, 2006 #
The entire notion of an all encompassing, infinitely powerfull being such as “god” really does not make any sense to me.
Christianity may be a load of BS but i think we have to remember that for all its contradictions people can still find solace and peace of mind in “god”,it instils the idea of compassion and love in the minds of its followers, it gives people peace of mind.
Its not really such a bad thing. Except that what they believe in does not exist. I say leave them in their ignorance, for all its obscurity its finnaly doing the world a favour.
Comment by Eris — 22 September, 2006 #
Evolution – God = 0
Creation – God = 0
Both require a god, athiesm is for hippies “we are imagining” ^^
Comment by oli — 23 September, 2006 #
Nothing requires a god….
Mathematical equations don’t prove god
BTW nothing in this article has anything disproving a god, just questioning Christianity…
Comment by junaman — 23 September, 2006 #
^It was aimed more at italianstallion.
Catholicism has really given Christianity a bad name, especially with the inquisitions.
I dont go to church, I pray to god, I accept Jesus and Holy Spirit (and God).
The Pope has also said some nasty things about muslims and arent Catholics ment to treat everyone with respect what ever their religion?
Comment by oli — 23 September, 2006 #
Fantastic! 149 strong points making an argument I completely agree with (http://petersattic.wordpress.com/2006/08/10/a-better-world-without-god/)
Comment by Peter N — 29 September, 2006 #
The belief in a god that thinks, acts and looks just like Charlton Heston is common amongst people with low IQs and especially amongst those with a poor understanding of math and science.
For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence
Excerpt:
Belief in a personal God among scientists
In one study, 90% of the general population surveyed professed a distinct belief in a personal god and afterlife, while only 40% of the scientists with a BS surveyed did so, and only 10% of those considered “eminent.”. Another study found that mathematicians were just over 40%, biologists just under 30%, and physicists were barely over 20% likely to believe in God.
A 1998 survey by Larson and Witham of the 517 members of the United States National Academy of Sciences showed that 72.2% of the members expressed “personal disbelief” in a personal God while 20.8% expressed “doubt or agnosticism” and only 7.0% expressed “personal belief”. This was a follow-up to their own earlier 1996 study which itself was a follow-up to a 1916 study by James Leuba.
Comment by mnsinger — 29 September, 2006 #
if there is no god, then why did you let that priest touch you in your special place?
Comment by your mom — 1 October, 2006 #
Umm??? W….T….F?
Hahahahahah, you made a funny…
Would you care to clarify how the existence of a god would in any way relate to view that priests have touched me?
Comment by junaman — 1 October, 2006 #
Hey juna, this post still open to some answers?
You talk about “credibility”. If every question was answered, you’re saying your opinion of the answer-giver would change or of God?
Comment by albert — 2 October, 2006 #
Sorry, yes this was caught by Akismet for some reason… It is always open for some answers.
If these were answered my opinion of the person who answered them would change, and I would be open to further discussion.
I highly doubt that anything other than solid proof would change my opinion of god…
Comment by junaman — 2 October, 2006 #
[...] Hmmmm……Interesting…… [...]
Pingback by Sakuranbo! — 3 October, 2006 #
Hmm. If that’s the case, a few more questions:
1. What do you think about empiricism?
2. What is your current opinion of god?
and
3. What would you call solid proof?
Comment by albert — 3 October, 2006 #
82. What exactly is faith?
I’m not Christian but I can tell you what faith is. I don’t know how the computer works but I have faith that it will. I don’t know why the sun comes up in the morning but I have faith that it will.
I have faith in the law of cause and effect.
Faith is being almost certain of something.
Knowing is being 100% certain of a thing.
I know that I exist. I have faith that I will always exist because consciousness is the creator, not the created. I have faith in that but I do not know it for certain.
Comment by jeannie49 — 4 October, 2006 #
Wow, this is fantastic! I want to print your questionnaire out so that the next time Jehovah’s Witnesses come a proselytizing I can have it ready for them. But seriously, in our rapidly shrinking world, it seems to be becoming increasingly necessary for the religious amongst us to examine in a hard and unflinchingly truthful manner what it is that which they put their faith in. Otherwise one can easily slip in to the mindless zealotry of a religious fanatic or the witless knee-jerk obedience of a programmed drone.
Comment by 10pa — 5 October, 2006 #
“Hmm. If that’s the case, a few more questions:
1. What do you think about empiricism?
2. What is your current opinion of god?
and
3. What would you call solid proof?”
Sorry, I was procrastinating over your question for a while.
1. I’m not exactly sure whether I agree with empiricism or not as I do not exactly know what it encompasses. I do not agree with what jeannie49 said about faith, where she applied it to having faith whether a computer works or not. I believe that you know if a computer works from past experience.
The first time you turn it on, you find that it works, and hence you assume that the next time you do so, it will work again as nothing in your knowledge has changed inside the computer. If it does not work, then you realise that something has changed/was broken and you get someone to fix it.
I do not see how faith is involved in that.
Back to empiricism, I think that it is very hard to adhere to something like this. For example if you see a news report on TV, with someone talking about something not absurd, if you hear it from enough sources you may start to believe it, because you logically feel, from past experience, I guess, that something like this had every possibility of happening. So perhaps experience is involved in you believing that something, which you hear on TV.
However, I feel that many people would believe almost anything they are told a priori and hence propaganda is known to work throughout modern history.
2. My current opinion about god is that I feel that the idea is absurd, and that it was made up by humans to control others and their hip pockets with the notion of “hell” and punishment for not doing exactly what “god” says. I feel that this idea evolved though, to give people comfort outside their miserable, meaningless existence.
3. Solid proof would involve a combination of empirical evidence and confirmation of this proof by others. It would require god to show himself to everyone, and prove that he is god by performing an absurd, never before witnessed act, while under this veil of god. If he is god, I am sure he knows of a way to get people to believe in him.
Comment by junaman — 6 October, 2006 #
[...] This thread was brought here from this post to make things more readable. “Hmm. If that’s the case, a few more questions: 1. What do you think about empiricism? 2. What is your current opinion of god? and 3. What would you call solid proof?” [...]
Pingback by Junaman thread « Fundamentalist Christianity — 7 October, 2006 #
[Junaman: I've crossposted this on my site for an easier read.]
This thread was brought here from this post to make things more readable.
It’s cool, I know the feeling. You should see some of my emails. And the dates I respond to them by.
You can find a good definition at Wikipedia – see the entry. Basically, it’s the idea that knowledge is gained through experience alone, vs. being gained through rationalism. You could say that creation vs. evolution is something of a throwback to these ideas, where creationism might relate more to empiricism (God exists because of the testimony of others) and evolution might relate more to rationalism (scientific method).
This is actually an empiricist view of how a computer works.
Actually, faith is totally involved in it. Unless you’re a computer engineer or technician who both knows the theory behind the workings of a computer and has built the computer himself out of parts he has made personally, it would be impossible to say that faith wasn’t involved in at least a minute part of the process.
Even so, he must have faith in whomever sold the materials to him to be as stated. So faith becomes a part of the process regardless of theoretical knowledge and prior experience.
The example could have been a little bit better, but I think Jeannie sums it up pretty well:
Faith is knowing but with doubt, however small or large.
Your TV example is a better example of rationalism (a priori knowledge) rather than empiricism – the idea of people believing propaganda has more to do with examination of facts vs. belief of opinions.
Interesting. I was under the general idea that secularists were under the notion that ideas of god were more the lack of knowledge they possessed, leading them to believe god was the result of natural and sociopolitical phenomena, not to control populations for political ends (although your example has clearly become the norm).
I don’t see where you get your latter sentence unless you’re qualifying it as a hypothesis of your own (drawn on what seems an empiricist bias).
Hmm. So, your criteria for proof is based entirely on empiricism to determine God’s existence.
Do you think that’s good criteria?
Comment by albert — 7 October, 2006 #
Let me add this too – I think the things that are worthwhile will more often than not take a long time.
Comment by albert — 7 October, 2006 #
But if empiricism is knowledge gained through experience, then how would testimony of others be empirical? We did not experience god, or experience creationism…
Where as with evolution, we have witnessed how species have changed and evolved, and hence come up with this theory, which sounds more like empiricism to me.
But why must it be faith? Why can we not just see if it works, and then assume it will from past experience…
I think that last sentence was meant to be more about the belief in god due to lack of knowledge that science, or anything else can offer them…
I was partially assuming that god existed outside the realm of rational and scientific of thought, and hence the only way to prove him would be through empirical knowledge.
What would be an idea of god based on rationalism?
Comment by junaman — 7 October, 2006 #
Your second sentence is exactly it – the theist argues that he does experience god. That’s why testimony can be such a powerful influence on others.
“I switched from brand X to brand Y of detergent, and now it works great!”
-> person A watching commercial switches to brand Y.
“God freed me from my sickness and cured my addiction to drugs and alcohol, and here and I stand before you today.”
Whether or not it’s true is another story, proven by the test of time on that person’s character.
You’re right, it was an empirical method. The differences are that one is subjective, and the other is arguably objective. But they’re both empirical.
It’s really the only explanation for the new-age religionists out there who’ve claimed they’ve “had an experience with god”.
It’s faith because it contains doubt, however small or large. If the computer engineer has one speck of doubt as to who the provider of the materials is he’s building the computer with, then it’s faith. It might be small, but it’s still faith.
I think this means you’re critical of subjective empiricism. I can agree with that. But if you’re offering science (or moreso “objectivity”) as an only method to the gaining of knowledge, I would have to strongly disagree.
No, absolutely not. You should look up the Age of Enlightenment on Wiki – the majority of theistic argument up to the point of Darwin was based entirely on rationalism.
How about…
“God” is an absolute objectivity. Therefore, whether or not we believe “he” exists has no inkling on “his” actual existence.
Comment by albert — 8 October, 2006 #
[...] A continuation of Part 1. [link: original thread] A: You could say that creation vs. evolution is something of a throwback to these ideas, where creationism might relate more to empiricism (God exists because of the testimony of others) and evolution might relate more to rationalism (scientific method). J: But if empiricism is knowledge gained through experience, then how would testimony of others be empirical? We did not experience god, or experience creationism… [...]
Pingback by Junaman thread - Empiricism vs. Rationalism - Pt 2 « Fundamentalist Christianity — 8 October, 2006 #
Christian, explain thyself!
I saw this today, and it’s definitely worth a read and some consideration… It may torque some of you up, and perhaps that’s good. It would be better if it gave everyone some pause to think. Some of the points
Trackback by The Squid Zone — 11 October, 2006 #
re: faith and computers…
when you bought your computer, did you just have faith that the white box this guy sold would open a window onto the world, or did you see one running in a shop, have a demo of the internet, see some actual proof. when you turn on your PC, you don’t expect it to work because of faith, you expect it to work because you have seen the proof and evidence that it already works.
faith is a belief without proof or evidence.
Comment by Reg Spyder — 15 October, 2006 #
Reg – that’s a common misconception. Faith involves at least some degree of rationalism, however small.
You need to define “proof or evidence”.
Comment by albert — 15 October, 2006 #
To believe in God/s is an act of faith because the concept/being cannot be proven or disproven.
Faith leads to moral “truths”. These can be dangerous. Take Christianity and homosexuality. Or Islam and women. If people were more open to rational thought – rather than submitting to a very much dated, ignorant morality – then societies would no doubt be more tolerant.
Comment by porcelainmonkey — 15 October, 2006 #
porcelainmonkey:
Judging by your lack of contact info, you’re probably another troll. But here goes:
Your first point blatantly ignores my last comment – the one right above yours – in order to assert your own dangerous moral truth. So your argument that rational thought alone will result in toleration is baseless. Read the Rationalism vs. Empiricism thread – with special regards to the last question Junaman makes in part 2.
I can agree that moral truths can be dangerous in the sense that they might exclude one another, and therefore conflict. That is why I think it is necessary to take a passive stance when this conflict occurs – that which I believe Jesus thoroughly embodies.
This is one reason why “faith” in Christianity rests entirely on Jesus (can you see the rationale?).
Comment by albert — 16 October, 2006 #
One other thing, to further clarify:
This is true to the extent that it cannot be done through empirical (read: scientific) means.
Comment by albert — 16 October, 2006 #
Nature is God.
http://drhaisook.wordpress.com/2006/03/30/nature-is-god/
Comment by drhaisook — 16 October, 2006 #
At first I thought you were open to listening to serious, honest beliefs in a genuine debate. Then I read “magic happy land” and realized the error of my understanding.
So here. The answer to all of the above is–
Potato chips.
Comment by infringe — 16 October, 2006 #
@infringe…
I did not write these questions… yes, I am open to hearing what you have to say… Seeing as you answered like that, my assumption that religion is absurd (hence “magic happy land) has been affirmed…
Comment by junaman — 16 October, 2006 #
Good to see you’re actually still here Junaman… are you balking on replying to my last post again?
Comment by albert — 17 October, 2006 #
Actually my experience with this particular (rather vitriolic) questionairre is that it represents a trap. I actually answered these question once for an atheist who sent them to me. After I e-mailed her the answers, she proceeded to make fun of the fact that I even tried to answer them. And this is part of the problem. These questions, while answerable for the most part, are not designed to be answered. They are designed to intimidate the reader, and frighten the believer with their tone and “educated” appearance. In actuality, this a parade of straw men, apparently written by someone who learned about Christianity by reading their local newspapers.
And by the way: “preying” is something televangelists do. Praying is something Christians do.
Peace
Comment by Nixcell — 18 October, 2006 #
I have the answers you seek
Did you just call God a p*ssy?
9 Simple Rules for Religious People:
1) If you claim your God is all powerful, you can not ask for or try to help him in any way. He does not need it! He is all powerful.
2) If you claim your God is Everything, you can not also claim he is on your side as opposed to anyone else’s. He is on all sides! He is all sides.
3) If you claim your God created everything, you can not say he has needs. He created money! He does not need any!
4) If you caim your God is the only God, you can not make a gender specific description of him. He does not have genitalia! She does not reproduce her kind.
5) If you claim your God has a purpose for everything, you can not try to change anything. Who are you to interfere with the Will of God?
6) If you claim your God is Omniscient, you can not claim that prayer is anything more than annoying to him. Omniscience precludes ADD and short term memory loss. He does not need you to remind him of current events, gossip, or what you want for Christmas. He knows already!
7) If you claim your God is Great, you can not claim he has the worst of human traits such as jealousy, hatred, anger, or any other of the things more aptly attributed to ex-significant others whom the term Great is never used in regards to. Unless for sarcasm of course as in, “you mean that rabbit boiling freak I used to live with? Yeah, she was a Great Girlfriend!”
9) If you claim that you are Saved and that Heaven Awaits you, please by all means go now! Why wait? If you think God needs you to do anything here, please reread rules 1-8. Oh, and try not to take anyone with you. God will get around to them when He decides it is their time to go. You are only responsible for yourself, figuratively. Actually, God and his Grace have that one taken care of too, so… Whatever.
As for me, I claim nothing really. But if there is a God, it would seem that He has left us here, by ourselves for the most part, with only the means to get by without Him.
Comment by Reverend X — 18 October, 2006 #
You haven’t really questioned anything I said, but I’ll reply to some of your post.
And schizophrenics argue that they experience voices in their heads, or whatever else they may see during hallucinations. Modern science calls that a disease…
Where is the rationalism in believing in god? Is there any rational “proof” of god?
I think the notion of faith has several different contexts, and the definition can vary throughout. I think sometimes it’s used due to custom only… as in when it’s used instead of “trust”
I feel that the empirical evidence suggesting that a TV will work, leads you to believe it will work again… you have also been told by people that it will work (another way that it is possible, yet not always healthy to gain knowledge) and this contributes to you thinking it will work…
There is also scientific evidence of it working.
Whether you call it faith or not, it differs from faith in the religious sense.
Obviously it’s possible to gain knowledge through subjective empiricism – people have done it before…
Whether or not the knowledge is correct, and whether or not it is safe to accept subjective knowledge is another question…
Reagrdless, I believe that objective and rational knowledge is more credible
Comment by junaman — 18 October, 2006 #
Question 19 – Why should you be tortured for something you haven’t done – You shouldn’t!
The Greek/Russian Orthodox church rejects the idea that the guilt of original sin is passed down. A child is not guilty for the sin of a father. this can be found in Exodus.
3 and 5. The physical persecutions of Old Believers were undertaken by the Russian government, not the church, although individuals from the church may have participated. The harsh measures were unacceptable and anti-humantarian.
26. The Orthodox church uses the edition of the Bible as agreed to in 4 CE, because it helped put it together! The schism with Catholicism and protestantism occurred later.
Comment by Hal Smith — 18 October, 2006 #
Fun stuff, Junaman, fun stuff. I consider myself a quasi-Christian, in the mold of “Course of Miracles”, which is considered heretical by traditional Christianity. The entity that channeled the writing for Course of Miracles was clearly Bhudda-like, but feeling is that so was JC — it was human interpretation of JC that destroyed any meaning behind the religion.
I didn’t get the reference to Mark 7:25-29 and the racism thing. One thing I’ve never gotten from anything JC allegedly said was that he was a racist.
That said, I enjoyed your questionnaire. My only quibble (and maybe it isn’t a small one) is that the Old Testament is really no more advanced in liturgal writing than Gilgamesh, and Western civilization was pretty focused on the revenge factor during those days.
Oops. We still are.
The other thing is that the bible was pretty clearly written by scribes with their own agendas.
I didn’t read the entire thing (but I will someday I hope) but if you didn’t ask this question, you should have:
If Mary really did give birth to Jesus without doing the nasty with JC’s dad, then isn’t she a goddess?
Comment by thegoreyears — 18 October, 2006 #
I could never be a Christian because both my spiritual and literal ancestors were mercilessly and unnecessarily killed when the christ-god said “thou shant murder”. where does jesus get off saying his followers do not have to fast or follow kosher anymore, or sacrifice to the god who is called i am? and how come just because a woman has a vagina and womanly hormones, she is automatically subservient to man (even though galations 3:8 states oppositely that there is no jew/gentile, slave/master, man/woman in god?). and, of course, why is he called jesus of nazareth instead of jesus of bethelehem, because everyone either bore the name “x of/from some city” or “x son of y”. and studying israeli history shows there is no city called nazareth in that day or age.
my god desires sacrifice, but is best pleased with song, water, plants, or devotion. (i am a devotee of krishna.)
Comment by Daijinryuu — 18 October, 2006 #
You’re right. I haven’t questioned anything you’ve said because you’ve been the one asking the questions which have been the framework for the discussion.
… and modern atheists tend to call it the “opiate of the masses”. Key word there is “masses”: have you ever heard of a “mass hallucination”?
This point is especially relevant with the genesis of Christianity in the first century.
Yeah. Read the last sentence of my comment on Oct 8.
Define “scientific evidence” in terms of empiricism and rationalism.
Not really. Being grounded in “science” doesn’t necessarily guarantee 100% accuracy of results unless it’s a law. But even those have been broken at times.
Yep – people like Satre, Kant, Voltaire, Nietzsche, Hume, etc.
Which is where “faith” and morality come in.
Define “objective and rational knowledge”. I believe a rationale exists, but not “rational knowledge”. I believe objectivism exists, but not “objective knowledge”.
What is your rationale for the existence of the two? If you can’t explain it, give it to me in an example.
Comment by albert — 18 October, 2006 #
[...] Yeah. Read the last sentence of my comment on Oct 8. J: I think the notion of faith has several different contexts, and the definition can vary throughout. I think sometimes it’s used due to custom only… as in when it’s used instead of “trust” [...]
Pingback by Junaman thread - Empiricism vs. Rationalism part 3 « Fundamentalist Christianity — 18 October, 2006 #
Daijinryuu,
There’s obviously no excuse in the actions of supposed devotees of the past. I can only offer my apologies and say that I, myself, have learned, or have a greater understanding o the teachings of Jesus and illegitimate justifications used for preemptive war as a result of it. (Although, that’s far from the case for many American Christians today… in fact I used to be one of those in support of the Iraq drumbeating)
However, in the same vein, couldn’t you apply the same criticism to your own dogma? It’s not like war has been an exclusive product of Christianity alone – clearly, it has existed since the beginning of man. So in essence, the argument could be made that your ancestors killed your own ancestors, could it not?
Regarding your specific criticisms, you mention a few other points:
where does jesus get off saying his followers do not have to fast or follow kosher anymore, or sacrifice to the god who is called i am?
and how come just because a woman has a vagina and womanly hormones, she is automatically subservient to man (even though galations 3:8 states oppositely that there is no jew/gentile, slave/master, man/woman in god?).
and, of course, why is he called jesus of nazareth instead of jesus of bethelehem, because everyone either bore the name “x of/from some city” or “x son of y”. and studying israeli history shows there is no city called nazareth in that day or age.
Did you want a defense of these points, or was it your intention to argue for the supremacy of your religion’s morality/historical basis over Christianity (we know what Junaman would think about that)?
Comment by albert — 18 October, 2006 #
[...] Daijinryuu, I’ve brought the thread to my site in case you wanted to discuss further here (also due to readability errors and recent force of habit). I could never be a Christian because both my spiritual and literal ancestors were mercilessly and unnecessarily killed when the christ-god said “thou shant murder”. where does jesus get off saying his followers do not have to fast or follow kosher anymore, or sacrifice to the god who is called i am? and how come just because a woman has a vagina and womanly hormones, she is automatically subservient to man (even though galations 3:8 states oppositely that there is no jew/gentile, slave/master, man/woman in god?). and, of course, why is he called jesus of nazareth instead of jesus of bethelehem, because everyone either bore the name “x of/from some city” or “x son of y”. and studying israeli history shows there is no city called nazareth in that day or age. [...]
Pingback by Daijinryuu thread - on historical Christian violence « Fundamentalist Christianity — 18 October, 2006 #
Sorry for taking so long to reply…
First of all, not all religious people claim they have “seen” or “experienced” god, secondly the ones who have can all claim they saw different things, no one’s belief is truly identical to another’s, hence is it really a “mass hallucination”, or just different people hallucinating different things.
Others still, can pass it off as if they see god, and not random voices, to avoid being classed as a schizophrenic.
That is an “idea” of god based on rationalism, not proof that he exists…
Well, objective empiricism where something is witnessed through experimentation… and rationalism that can be explained by reason, without actually experiencing it work… Both of these are present in the case of a television.
I don’t see the need for this celebrity endorsement…?
Probably a poor choice of words on my part…
Not really sure what you mean?
Comment by junaman — 25 October, 2006 #
[A: edited. There was a section missing a response in the original which has since been changed. Delete/ignore the original response if you want].
It’s fine, I suppose. But the longer it takes, the more disingenuous your pursuit of “exposing incompetence”, as it were, will look (recent post(s) nonwithstanding).
This is true, but…
…this is a generalization, which leads you to inaccurately conclude…
Take a look at the genesis of first century Christianity (comment from another site | Acts and letter to Corinthians. Then the explosive growth).
Now if you want to debate on whether Christianity in Rome was the result of a conspiracy, that’s another thread…
“‘idea’ of god”: rationalism:: Evolution: theory (refer to my comment halfway down). See here why “theory” is the appropriate scientific relegation for evolution.
If that’s your definition of “objective empiricism”, it’s flawed. “Scientific evidence” in the scientific method is best defined as being the repeatedly verified hypotheses/theory through the experimentation of a number of qualified people. Secondly… there is no such thing as rational “scientific evidence” (I extrapolate on this closer to the bottom of the post). This is called, in scientific terms, a hypothesis.
It’s a counter to the [read: your] basic idea [read: what seems to be your understanding] that empiricism (vs. the “rationalism of science”) is inherently fallacious. It also serves to demonstrate your level of understanding since I first used the terms in the thread.
Bad wording on my part as well – to restate: what is your definition of “objective and rational knowledge”?
I said:
To explain: “rational” means, basically, “consistent with or based on or using reasoning” (reference). “Knowledge”, on the other hand, can be defined as
This means that the two are mutually exclusive. Hence, “rationale”.
Secondly, about the non-existence of objective knowledge, I argue this for the following reason: in order to truly qualify as being “objective” through the lens of science (which I presume you’re basing this on), you’d have to have known all factors (down to the spacial orientation of atoms and molecules, even superstring “RPM”) which definitely have contributed to such-and-such situation. Ignoring “concrete” physical hypotheticals such as dark matter, social scientists rely on making tentative explanations (see the scientific method: google | my layman’s definition of process) to explain social phenomena. Hardly conclusive, wouldn’t you think?
In short, true objectivism occurs when all macro and micro-causes to an effect are known. It cannot, nor ever will, occur – mark my words.
This is one reason why the Nobel Prize in science still exists.
Comment by albert — 26 October, 2006 #
You put a bit much weight on a tagline… How is this conversation exposing incompetence.
The real incompetence is not whether you believe in a god, but what you use that belief for, what objective you try to achieve with that belief.
And perhaps the Dawkins idea, that any ignorant belief of this kind safeguards extremism.
I’m sure that you agree that your beliefs differ from most other people of your faith (in my experience, at least), and there is no incompetence in a rational conversation…
I still think that no two beliefs are completely identical… they may be made to conform to a common one, and some are more easily swayed than others, but I think that the mind is capable of producing unique thought…
What do you intend to prove with bible quotes? You can see the inconsistencies in the bible in the same place where you started this discussion.
Mass hallucination?
As I said above, people can be manipulated… doesn’t mean they all saw the exact same thing in a hallucination…
What do you mean to say by this?
Yes, evolution is a theory, but is god a “proven hypothesis”?
Perhaps it is not inherently fallacious, but I feel that empiricism can, and has been, used as a tool to manipulate people. That is why knowledge obtained through it can be dangerous.
Fair enough
Obviously your knowledge and understanding of epistemology far outweighs my own…
Comment by junaman — 26 October, 2006 #
dude you are a fool.
Comment by Brent — 27 October, 2006 #
Brent that was uncalled for.
It’s called an ad hominem attack, and is the farthest thing from rationalism one can get.
Comment by albert — 27 October, 2006 #
That’s not just a tagline… it’s also the title of your blog.
Well, that one should be obvious. The incompetence comes in the form of dogmaticism regarding the “ultimate truth” of science, which is implied from your For Christians page.
I can agree if you’re referring to “amoralism”, e.g. in the case of Hitler and Bush. I don’t think proselytising necessarily bring you to the same conclusion.
Yes – this is just a a restatement of the dogmaticism idea – it should be categorically avoided. But at times it is not possible.
In the US, I’d say yeah. There is (fortunately and unfortunately) a greater tradition of evangelical fundamentalism dating back to the colonial period which arose as a counter-revolution to the Age of Enlightenment.
I put the quote back in to say that this was more a reference to first century Christianity than mysticism in general. The next quote was moved to provide context:
I would argue that “inconsistencies” in the verses, first of all, are the improper application of hermeneutics, if at all. Secondly,
…in the case of first century Christianity, the verses prove that it was indeed a “mass hallucination”: specifically, the belief was that, to the >500 people who ate, drank, spoke, and/or touched Jesus after his crucifixion, that he had in fact resurrected from the dead. The belief was in fact identical… similarly, “Jesus never existed” or “God is dead” is another belief which can be made identical.
Of course, if you’re talking about belief systems, that’s obviously another story. In the case of Christianity, I think uniformity is a good indication of dogmaticism/brainwashing. I think it can be deduced through the New Testament letters that such a condition didn’t exist.
Diversity (uniqueness) of good/godly practice, in true Christianity, comes as a result of a living God residing in you – the Holy Spirit. But diversity of beliefs come as a result of improper hermeneutical (rational) application.
The mind is capable of producing uniquely good thought (incarnated by practice) in the context of different belief systems, simply because no two real-world situations are alike. So the question becomes, can they produce consistently good, unique thought, loving and serving others, taking no credit for themselves; or, do they revel in serving others for their own ends (like politicians)? Clearly we’ve seen more the case of the latter (as opposed to the Judaic ontic assertion that humans have all sinned).
Evolution is a proven hypothesis, not a scientific law. God is also a proven hypothesis – but not using the scientific method. Instead a different rubric – rationalism – is used.
Yes, but you cast “manipulation” in a negative light far too often. It happens all the time in one situation which you probably don’t think of too often (or if you do, also in a negative light) – parentage.
Do you think the mother who raised her child as a baby now disciplines him to bring him/her to a state of despair or self-destruction? No! (Unless you’re speaking of familialism, which is another matter altogether). Instead the mother, more often than not, does this for the social benefit of her child, as if to paradoxically protect him. This is the result of parental love (often guided by empiricism).
So manipulation isn’t wrong by default. Parental discipline is the result of love, which is understood empirically. Manipulation where people act as if they are God is where the problem lies – which is why teachers have such a great responsibility.
You shouldn’t look at it that way. Most of the understanding of the nature of rationalism and empiricism can be done inductively. It’s a matter of willingness on your part to go through and empirically analyze some of your most deeply-held beliefs.
Believe it or not, you’ll find that some (or maybe a lot) of the things you believe are actually a reflection of faith in your teachers (a priori/a posteriori knowledge), and perhaps little of your own rationale.
Go through some of your stuff and see if you can identify what epistemic category your ideas fall under (you too, Christians). And lastly, see if you can form an exemplary model from them to live by.
I think you will find that Jesus overwhelmingly meets all the above criteria.
Comment by albert — 27 October, 2006 #
Sorry, meant to say that’s not just a tagline… it’s also the only category of your blog.
Comment by albert — 27 October, 2006 #
2.
Nobody is in hell yet. Wait for judgement day.
Comment by Me — 30 October, 2006 #
I, would, first, like to thank you for posting this. i am a devout christian (protestant) and i actually am glad that these are here. It provides everyone, faithful or otherwise, a chance to examine what they believe in. i plan on answering all of these questions to the best of my ability, so you can expect them possibly in the next month or so (they are seriousy deep questions, and i am a college student. You’ll understand my lack of time to ponder, research, etc.) but please be expecting my reply.
Thank you
Comment by Bryan — 31 October, 2006 #
I appreciate everyone’s enthusiasm on this posting, and the questionnaire is quite great, but I believe most of you have the wrong idea concerning what Christians represent. First of all, they are not all warmongering bigotous idiots like many of you seem so suppose. Some of them are, it is true, and there have been many atrocities done in the name of Christianity, but this represents a flaw in humanity, not necessarily in Christianity. There have been many intelligent, honest and thoughtful Christians throughout history who believed in the ideals of freedom, justice, egalitarianism, feminism, peace and prosperity for all people. It seems like some of you are unfairly generalizing. I know very well that there are many things in Christianity that don’t make sense, but the majority of Christians are dealing with these issues honestly, not trying to hide deficiencies in favor of dogmatic propaganda. Secondly, the issues raised by the questionnaire are hardly anything new and certaintly have not been ignored by Christians. In fact, these are the issues that Christians have been stuggling to make sense of for the last 2000+ years. Perhaps they will fail, or perhaps they already have, but I urge you to consider the implications of what you are arguing. Many of the greatest western thinkers, teachers, philosophers, writers, speakers, politicans and leaders have been Christians and maybe all of you think that this has been to our detriment. There have also been many great thinkers who denied God; Nietzsche is one of my favorites. Whatever your perspective is, know that you are up against two thousand years of committed thought and analysis on the subject of Christianity, Jesus and the Jewish God YHWH, and consider your invlovment carefully.
Also, I intend to provide answers to the questionnaire using a combination of orthodox Christian doctrine and what I believe; hopefully the answers will be helpful.
Anyway, sorry for the length, keep up the discussion, cheers.
Joseph
Comment by Joseph — 31 October, 2006 #
i’ll try to somewhat clear up a few of these, theres a lot lol.
an important thing to remember is that alot of the bible (IMO) is not to be taken literally. its about the lessons and morals within it. its not a fact book, or a history book. so try to keep an open mind, scrutiny leads to bigotry
20. Explain why getting dunked in or sprinkled with water will prevent me from being eternally tortured for the actions of the naked fruit-munching simpletons mentioned in #19.
its not about the water, its symbolic of you giving you life to christ, at least i dont believe it has anything to do with the water
1. Explain why your god’s only son had to die so we can go to magic happy land when we croak.
because thats how much he loves us
2. Did everyone who died before Jesus died go to Hell? Justify your answer.
nope tho i dont know the exact verse, it says that God will let some people into heaven for being good people. and that nomatter how hard we would try to give the impression that we know whos going to heaven or hell, it also states taht NOBODY, knows who goes. you can have an idea, but never really know
4. Explain why your sect (whether Catholic, Protestant, or Eastern Orthodox) pursued, tortured, and killed people who were not Christian.
5. Explain why your sect (whether Catholic, Protestant, or Eastern Orthodox) pursued, tortured, and killed people who were not members of your particular sect.
i’m not ether of these, but that was along time ago when the church was more corrupt than it is, it happened and happens, because nobody is perfect and everyone is a sinner, but what counts is that we are now trying to achieve astate of holiness with God
8. Explain why, when discrimination against women is clearly wrong, the Bible clearly supports the oppression of women. Answering this question entails refuting 1 Cor 11 and 1 Tim 2:11-15. NOTE: under no circumstances will I believe that discrimination against women solely on the basis of sex is morally acceptable.
Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection.
12 But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve;
14 and Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression:
15 but she shall be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety.
well it was woman who first betrayed God, so he pnished women, but gave them another chance through child bearing
so, its not really discrimination
Explain why sex, potentially one of the most wonderful, beautiful things in human nature, is considered “bad” by your particular sect. If your sect does not consider sex to be “bad,” then refute Matthew 19:12, 1 Corinthians 7 (particularly verses 1 and 9), Galatians 5:17, 1 Thessalonians 4:3, James 1:14-15, Matthew 24:38, Luke 17:27, and Revelation 14:4.
have you ever read the song of soloman (its an edited book of the bible) it’s a whole book dedicated to sex, and interestinlgy enough talks about is in such away that people learn how to do it better (ie. the fondling position, “one hand begind her head, one hand below it)
we worship jesus cuzz he was the son of god, and IS god
Do you believe that your god is anti-homosexual? If so, explain why he would create homosexuals in the first place. If not, refute or explain away Leviticus 20:13 and Romans 1:26-27.
god loves everyone, he created man for woman and woman for man. though it is a disgrace to refute him any other way, he will give grace towards it. thats why people should not judge others about it
Are all atheists/agnostics/humanists bad? Are they all damned to Hell? Justify your answer with quotes from the Bible.
once again, i am only 16 and dont have the bible memorized, but i do know that it says in the bible that nobody knows whose going to heaven or hell, i whole heartedly belive you caould be an atheist and go to heaven under those principles
What is sin, exactly?
doing something God would not approve of
Explain why your god created humans as imperfect, then set his standards so high that no one could possibly live up to them, then punishes us for not living up to his standards. Doesn’t this also constitute “entrapment?”
one of the greatest gifts he gives is free will. he also gives this gift called forgivness, if you repent, god will actually ourposeflully forget that you have even sinned, so through repentence we get no punishment
well thats all i have time for tonight, but i’ll be back
but ps. i’m really glad your thinking about this, which is more than most people can say. you show intelligence and ask questions. good ones too!
Comment by travis — 2 November, 2006 #
mmmm these question arent really hard, I could answer nearly all of them, some I’d have to study up, but really I dont think some people really want to know, some people are happy bashing faith and preffer to live in ignorance because if they found the truth, what then? They’d have to change as no they know there are consequences to here thinking and actions, but most people prefer to justify their actions by making up theories, if you reall want the truth I can show you how to get it, otherwise, keep bashing, it easier
Comment by Daryl — 2 November, 2006 #
Hmm… I like it… however, the interesting point to note here is not so much that it’s just a Christian “problem”, in that it’s a problem to have a religion that makes no sense whatsoever, but all religions. That would include, islam, christianism, bhuddism and any others… Sad but true.. This is why the state and the church (whichever that may be) should always be separate.
Comment by krazy — 2 November, 2006 #
There is absolutley no reason for ANY religion to be something made public. It has no place what so ever in Politics, Public areas, or Schools. If these single minded believers wish to follow these cults (and no there isnt any difference between these and other cults like the Solar Templars, or God’s Children)
I wouldn’t have any problem with religion if it was kept a private matter between the person and the belief but when I see these bastards going door to door offering Salvation in exchange for a weekley donation and the presence at their church for the rest of their lives is when i get very pissed off.
If people wanted to join your faith, religion, or spiritual beliefs they would do so on their own accord something you have to accept.
which is making me believe that they aren’t going on their own so you have to interfer by offering them promises you cannot in anyway, shape, or form guarantee.
As for having a place in politics WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TO USE YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS IN THE WAY OUR SOCIETY FUNCTIONS?!
debating on whether gay marriages are allowed or not disgusts me, Marriage is a bond between 2 people who love each other, the gender of the 2 people shouldn’t even be considered. Something that disgusts me even more is the fact that our Government actually has to decide on allowing these people the freedom to get married, ITS A RIGHT EVERYBODY SHOULD HAVE! not allowing it Violates the basis of “Human Rights”
The bottom line, regardless of your religion, or spiritual belief, keep it a private matter. Forcing it on others who don’t come to you on your own should be against the fucking law. Stay out of politics, it has absolutley no place for you. Last, stop trying to take the freedoms of people away, your religion should not affect other peoples lives AT ALL! it sickens me how you try to create the perfect society according to your bible
~Pissed off Canadian
Comment by Priest Torcher — 3 November, 2006 #
I always like hearing both sides of the argument. I’m a Christian but like many I can’t follow the whole organized part due to most of the hypocrisy I’ve seen. I don’t need man to believe in God and I think anyone with a brain can draw a line between right and wrong. I’ll walk my own path in life and I’ll try my best and I’ll believe in God while doing it. I pity all the hate flowing through these comments on both sides, I don’t see this earth making it for much longer.
as for junaman
“Umm… why?
Because I just owned everything you believe in?-junaman”
+
“Taken from: http://www.geocities.com/athens/olympus/5599/hpq/ – I DID NOT WRITE THIS…”
You didn’t own anyone if anyone got “owned” it was because of that site. In any case, I don’t think anyone should have been “owned”. If a few questions can destroy your faith then I don’t think you believed in anything from the start. That comment bugged me, I think you just want to feel a sense of importance. To stir something up huh? Well you got your attention. Congrats.
Comment by WhoresWithHalos — 3 November, 2006 #
Wow, you all amuse me so much!! You are all on here debating nonsense. Don’t you realize the TRUTH? NO? Well, I’ll tell you the TRUTH!
Religion was started way before Christianity. It started when Human Beings had no idea how to explain anything so they devised ancient myths to describe why things are. Then as Human Beings progressed and became smarter and smarter, we needed guidelines and laws to make sure we stayed in line.
By the way, don’t forget that most prior Religions praised Warfare and all fighters who fought and died went to a special place above (I’ll use the common name now to make everyone understand) heaven. So then came the future.
So Current Religion was devised. The Bible is the same as Hammurabi’s Law. But a little nicer. Don’t do this, but you can do this. Wow, who the hell cares if any of it is real! People need to believe in something or they will go crazy and rob and kill everyone. So Religion fills that part as well.
I also have one other question to add to this little thing though. If babies are one of the only pure things that can go to heaven no matter how and when they die, because they are “innocent.” Then why don’t people just kill babies as soon as they are born and send us all to an eternal happiness? That one person would be sinning and sent to hell but hey I’m sure someone would love to take that job somewhere right?
I used to try to reason and debate this very topic, but then I learned the TRUTH. Who cares? Just live your live morally and you’ll go to wherever the good place is. I hope haha!!
Comment by The TRUTH — 3 November, 2006 #
This questionnaire, although certainly intended to destroy Christian ignorance, is a lesson in ignorance in itself. I would not waste the time of day to justify the quite obvious responses to such juvenile and uneducated atheistic belief system. Having discontent or problems with Chrstianity is fine, and disagreeing with it is likewise understood. But please, at least research these questions before you actually pose them. You are only would be ashamed of.
If the original author of this survey would like to go back and do the research, and then–only then– come back with questions, then fine. Educated Christians are not afraid to respond. But until you overcome the ignorance in this survey (to which both I, a Christian, and a friend, an athiest attest to), this is only an example of athiestic ignorance pitifully attacking an enemy of which he does not understand.
Bottom line: stop talking if you don’t know what you’re talking about. Better silence than stupidity.
Comment by Cameron — 3 November, 2006 #
According to Erich Von Daniken Jesus is burried in a place called Kashmir in India.He says that Jesus escaped from the crusifiction and fled to Kashmir and Mr.Danikan also says in his book that there is a reference of Jesus in the Hindu holy books of the Gita and the Vedas.For your information hinduism is the oldest religion in the world.
Comment by DB — 3 November, 2006 #
FOR YOUR INFORMATION DB,
PAGANISM is the oldest religion in the world.
Human Beings only rely on the history that other men tell them is true. One new discovery could change all that we Humans think that we know!!!!!
Comment by The TRUTH — 3 November, 2006 #
First off, I would like to point out that this article will do nothing more than inspire “Christians” (The quotations are deliberate) to beccome hostile to the author’s “ignorance” or “lack or research”
Might I point out that this article raises questions that cannot be answered by most bible believers.
I am however learned in bibles studies, I have many friends who call themselves christians, all of which have blind faith in the absurd. But I love them, they are my friends and family and I can be tolerant of their ignorance.
What this article did for me was re-enforce my belief that the true god would not have anything to do with such folly as the Bible or this article for that matter. It is only human nature to try to explain the existences (or lack thereof) of God. These questions cannot be answered for one simple reason, God did not write a book, men did.
Men who desired power, wealth and abouve all, complacent women.
There are more simple questions that can be asked without having to refer to the bible (and in such a case as this, be reffered to time and again as “Ignorant”
So, here are my questions for “Christian” peoples
If God takes us when he wants us, why wear a seatbelt? Or take antibiotics
Comment by Not Ignorant God Believing Man — 3 November, 2006 #
Some quick things to comment on. The whole history of Jesus has been skewed and twisted. if you research this period of time HISTORICALLY, you’ll learn that he and his followers were a group of Jews know as Qumranians. In their Jewish beliefs are where we get “the holy trinity”, though theirs were described as two “pillars”, a kingly (translation of the word “messiah”) and a priestly, who were Jesus (actually, Yahashua (sp.)) and his brother James, respectively, with an arch joining the two on top representing God. Also of note is that if you traslate Barrabas (the man chosen by the Jews to be released instead of Jesus), it means, literally, “Son of God”. Therefore, Jesus was the Kingly (Messiah) leader, though his brother, James, was the priestly. He was the one chosen over Jesus to live, as he was viewed as closer to god and, therefore, more important. I could go on and on, but if any Christian does some historical research, you’ll find that most all of Christianity comes as much from the Egyptians, Sumerians and others as from the Jews, and you’ll find just how inaccurate what we’ve been taught is. By the way, you know why we say “Amen” at the end of prayer? Amen-Ra was the Egytpian god/creator, and Moses brought his version of their beliefs back to Israel with him, and as this cult grew, it morphed into Judaism. Any questions, feel free to ask and I’ll gladly retort. Just do some research before you blindly defend “faith” people. The Bible teaches some good lessons, but it also has some HUGE holes in it, and is by no means meant to be taken literally and/or as historical FACT by rational people.
Comment by FACTS — 3 November, 2006 #
I believe in something bigger than myself.
The originating force?
Call it whatever comes to mind but God suits me fine for the argument.
I cannot share it with you because it is my own personal “God”.
You find your own.
Religion is manmade and as such subjective.
Organized Religion and any attempt to lead people to a particular deity will by definition create opponents.
Not everyone likes to be told what to do and believe.
We have inherited a set of right/wrong values that seem to work in society, therefore all we have to do is keep them and not do to others what we wouldn’t want them to do to us.
Simple as that.
Now please dont go about making a religion of my words…..
Comment by Odysseus — 3 November, 2006 #
I don’t beleive in god. If he does exist, he’ll understand where I’m coming from.
Comment by Gen — 3 November, 2006 #
As an American Indian who has had a different form of belief system handed down to me form my people, it gives me a slightly different view of Christianity. My grandmother thought Christianity was a sickness that ate your brain. I believe it is a software style brain virus that first infects its host, disconnects the host’s natural ability to think, feel, and reason properly. It even damages the natural instincts of reproduction and survival. The virus then after solid infection and collapse of the natural programming that we are born with starts trying to spread itself to other people, creating a more powerful network for faster infection of yet more people. Common sense is quickly replaced by faith. Faith is the ability to be selectively blind, deaf, and dumb as required to allow the virus to run without interruption even in the face of absolute double think absurdity. You can do just about anything to a Christian and they will allow it, but question their religion, make them think, and they will become violent. The virus must protect itself even if the host is not allowed personal defense.
Ok, so who made the Christ virus and why? It was designed and built over hundreds of years. Let me see, a social virus that lets you control people. You can make them so docile that you can slap them upside the head and they will turn so you can slap the other side. They will hand over all their belongings, money, land, homes, labor, little girls, little boys, and be happy for it, because they will be rewarded for it in the afterlife. You can if you want, whip them into a frenzy to kill and die for you like in the holly wars or the inquisition. I would say it’s a pretty handy virus to have if you need to control the population and its resources, just something to think about.
Reverend Ernest Black Feather
Comment by Ernest — 3 November, 2006 #
“lol shrinkly – “prey”? that’s pedophiles, not christians. >_>”
well in the uk the two generally equal the same thing, specifically with priests.
Comment by JC — 3 November, 2006 #
Don’t you have anything better to do you loser.
Comment by whocares — 3 November, 2006 #
I got the answer to all the questions, on why some of the gospels don’t make sense, why a lot of interpretations by different sects (including islam, which in my view should not be a seperate belief cuz if you read the gospels and the koran you see they clearly supposed to be on one and the same bookshelf)
The answer is: the bible (meaning the 4 gospels PEOPLE chose from over 30 original ones…. why ignore all the other material, especially some very significant texts like the gospel of judas) was written by MAN not god.
for the rest, excellent questions, any believer or non believer who is honest will have to start doubting some stuff.
but honestly, how can you believe in texts written by some pre-medieval people who for most of them the world was not bigger then the 50 mile radius around where they lived out there lives.
personally i believe in god. but i do not believe in MAN made church (in fact a text not accepted for obvious reasons by the church apparantly in jezus’ own hand says he doesn’t want a central powerhouse for religon, for obvious reasons: power corrupts (which the church is, a means to power nothing more or less)), MAN made rules never ever said to have come from god anyway (like celebacy… god would have made us like single celled organisms if he didn’t want us to have sex and love. without sex no mankind simple as that) and especially not a (very nice though) series of texts written by MAN… from before the dark ages even… com’on it’s 2006 not 200AD.
as for the person who said “ok, first of fuck you why don’t you actually post the quotes in stead of the numbers? i hope you go to hell and get raped by a big black gay man” first off, by your own beliefs your now going to hell… have fun… second.. how can you claim to be religious in any right when you can’t be bothered to look it up in your supreme book…. written by pre medieval sheppards in cavessomewhere in the middle east……. a lot like the guys we’re hunting for terror come to think of it..
on a side note, the bible and the gospels not included in it are excellent literature btw..
PS maybe i missed it in your list… did you know that mary being a virgin was only thought up in the 17th century.. only 3oo years ago.. all the time before that they happily screwed around… even in the bible ^^
Comment by Kael — 3 November, 2006 #
Hmm there is no way in hell I have the time to reply to 150 questions…but find the ones that bother you most and ill asnwer them. pretty much the biggest problem most modern day people have with god is the problem of good vs evil…which is pretty much squashed in the book of JOB….anyway i just wanna make it clear that i am not part of any sect and i believe catholics have warped the scripture to fuel there own evil need.
Comment by LedPoison — 3 November, 2006 #
I just have one question … Who do you think you are that I, as a Christian, have to “explain” myself to you?? I’m sorry, but the only person I am accountable to is Jesus Christ himself.
Comment by Booger — 3 November, 2006 #
Wow…I tell ya what-I believe in the things I see or have seen, but I also believe in the “concept” of heaven, God, and other worldly phenomenon. I have never been to Paris, France-but I know it exsists…I of course, want proof of God before I believe in Him, but isin’t that why we call it “faith”? I am NOT a christian, nor do I “pray to God” for miracles or other such non-sense. But what I DO believe in is PEOPLE being good to OTHERS.
It is poor quality of a man or woman to do harm to themselves or others…or break laws that mean to keep us safe-like wearing a seat belt. I could care less if an adult chooses not to wear one, but it is a parental duty to maintain the safety of our children. Otherwise, why the hell have children if not to keep them safe?
I thoroughly enjoyed this post. I agree with alot of the questions you propse here about the “holes” we find in religion. Personally, I see religion as an excuse for the followers shortcomings. One can blame God for a mishap, or attribute a miracle to Him…either way, any given follower of God subtracts his or her contribution to life. Just assuming that God is in charge. Fuck that-we all have choices, and God has nothing to do with them.
As to whether or not the world was created by Him? Does it matter? Should we really question it or care? Creation or evolution? Well, scientifically, we have proof of evolution-look around you! As a medical professional, I can tell you that there’s proof of evolution just in the bacteria and viri I encounter on a day to day basis. There’s such a thing as MRSA-methicillin resistant Staph Aureas. It’s PROOF that this bacterium adapted to its surrounding, and now cannot be killed by certain types of anti-biotics.
Do you think that God made it so? HAHA! No, it’s a product of the environment. There are just too many examples I’m thinking of, but that one was the simplist and cannot be refuted. I nature, the strongest survive, so that the best genetic material is passed on to new generations…is that not a support of evolution?
I applaude your post-Kudos. Heh, now I almost wish that Heaven and Hell DO exsist so that when I tell someone to go to Hell, it acually means something.
Comment by Jessica — 3 November, 2006 #
On the paganism or hindu relgions as the oldest… wrong… the first religions probably date back much further in the past (millions of years. we are a very young species but around for several millions of years nonetheless) and are long since forgotten or grown and evolved into the religions we know now.. which also explains a lot of the similar stories in most religions.
Remind you that the physical capacities of our brain/intellect has been the same since the day homo sapien spawned. so the earliest beliefs… may it be as simple as moon=good or whatever (hunting on full moon makes it likely the first revered object in prehistoric history since you need night and controversially enough light to have the best hunt and enough to eat, ergo full moon was important enough to create a belief and a way to interact with it. for example prayer or sacrifices for a good hunt / full moon)
i’m not all to happy about my previous post though (drinking a nice port.)
But a lot of comments here strike me as uhm how to put this… missing point, quoting BS and who knows what else.. some start with words that make me quit reading the full comment anyway… (starting with fuck this or that for example, very religious and smart…. *sigh*)
I’m not saying i can do better or anything… for the people claiming the author hasn’t done research doesn’t know enough or other types of comments feel free to post copies of the actual “correct” texts he references. I’ve got my bible copy here new and old testament in a bundled edition, and am looking them up. so far I don’t see what he didn’t read or misreferenced.
anyway getting tired of this. people are getting “angry” because atheists bash jewish descendent beliefs or any for that matter… and in return those people start yelling back without first thinking either… kids in gradeschool like most mankind.
I’m not an atheist. I believe in god. I pray. but …. I don’t believe the books (written by man) or the church (made and ruled by man) any truly progressed religious person who thought about it would realize god is in your heart, not in a book written by men or rules thought up by them which has zip to do with any actual god(s). everything you need is already inside you. e.g. good and bad. god gave us a conscience, i don’t need a book for that. just to give one example..
off to bed.
PS forgot, revelations clearly is about a contemporary problem in john’s time period: Emperor Nero of the romans, not the end of the world or satan and/or the antichrist. nero was the beast. hebrew numeroly confirms that as 666 is code for the name nero. besides that nero acted like a beast so why not call him one.
Comment by Kael — 3 November, 2006 #
booger, christianity is the only sect of many jewish offspring to see jesus as anything more then a man lead by god or at most the son and representative of god on earth.
to me jezus=god equals to blasphemy. jesus himself said he was his son or in other texts a humble follower of god. jezus = god was thought up by the roman church.
ps. praise jezus. but don’t misstake him for god. since he also said he will have a space in the highest plane of heaven and so will judas for releasing his spirit. he wouldn’t need that if he was god himselfnd ruled over heaven and earth anyway.
On a seperate notion, one should never accept information even from THAT book at face value, always think. take in account the issues around when the gosepls were written, research what has been altered by the church to fit their need in history. the example someone mentioned about mary as a virgin mother being thought up in the 17th century is completely correct. if you could go back to the day of jezus and ask him if his mom is a virgin he’d prolly laugh at you since that notion spawned a whopping 16 hundred something years after he walked this earth.
bottom line is.. think for yourself.. god gave you a great mind…. use it. don’t just believe what people wrote. for all you know some stories just started out as a bedtime story attempt on a kid that couldn’t sleep. (not that im saying this was the case, just an example of how some things grow into things they were never meant to grow into)
But always think first and read lot’s, compare deduct make it a hobby, and be objective even if your feelings get hurt first.
another example would be the female oppressive koran.. the unedited version clearly proclaimed equality for both genders…. men didn’t want it that way and edited the text into a companion book to go alongside the koran… editing happens here too… just ask why are there 4 gospels in the bible of the over 30 originals? most of which got destroyed by the church after censorship left the 4 we all hold so dear…. because it didn’t suit the church leaders at that point in time.
what common people know is what men tell them, not god who is painfully silent.
kind regards,
A believer and theology student.
Comment by Theology student — 3 November, 2006 #
sheesh, i wish that i had the time to write out 149 questions like this…
I was skimming through them and pretty much every one i saw proved to me just how ignorant you are on the subject of religion.
For example number 31. Judas was not damned because he betrayed Jesus, he was damned because he commited suicide.
*147 If someone turns away from Jesus then they are no longer of the faith. I am a Catholic so i dont really believe in being “saved”.
*128 Im not surprised you have not noticed this, but waging war was only in the Old Testament. After Jesus came he founded Catholicism and his followers did not wage war.
*120 the Church is against sex !OUTSIDE! of marriage.
*108 Jesus is not Josephs child.
*117 past+present+future+North+South+East+West=7
7 is symbolic of everything in existance and 6 is symbolized as coming short of that. Satan is less then God so 666 is his number.
106* because Jesus was a man as well as the son of God. In the Garden before his death he said if it is possible let this cup pass from me, but not as i will it but as you do. you can find this in all 4 gospels.
*99 yes i have, although you obviously have not.
*83 the Bible was made 2000 years ago. Only a true ignoramus would believe that nothing has changed since 2000 years ago. If you want to know Catholic doctrine then read the Catechism
*66 you can either have a good life on earth or a good life after death. therefore evil people will always come out ahead.
*45 my religion does not require me to lie. unfortunately, some religious people are as ignorant as you seem to be, and so they spread lies about other faiths, making the rest of us look bad.
*3 during the middle ages the Church was extremely corrupt. It is shameful, but there are no 2 ways about it.
*4 see number 3
*5 see number 3
I dont have time to answer any more, but if you really cared about the answers you would go to a priest instead of just posting questions on the internet.
Comment by Anthony — 3 November, 2006 #
What the poster and many of the commenters do not realize is the very layered and incredibly complex field of Theology. Believe me, picking up a book which actually looks at many of these issues from an academic standpoint (and not an ignorant, partisan, or ridiculous standpoint, like this list here) would blow you out of the water. There is a reason that schools of theology are usually BEGUN at the UNIVERSITY GRADUATE LEVEL. In short, this stuff is far too complex for even your standard Bachelor out of university, and that includes myself.
However, the biggest problem within this list and all the ones like it is that it attacks the same virtues (or lack thereof) and behaviors that Jesus himself fought. I honestly believe that if Jesus read this website, he would probably agree with most of it. Humans are imperfect, and we use things of power to horde it ourselves. That is what much of the current day church has become, a magnet for power that can, and has been, exploited. Don’t get me wrong, there are many very good churches out there, but there is also a strong showing of deceit, manipulation, and lies.
Here’s my point tho: If you’re arguing the same argument as Jesus, then whats your problem? The ignorance in this list is ASTOUNDING!
1) Any or all reference to the Old Testament is absolutely useless and has no bearing. The old covenent, which was established in the Old Testament by Abraham, was destroyed when Jesus died on the cross, which explains why the curtain ripped in two (from the top down) the moment Jesus breathed his last breath. Jesus re-wrote the covenant at that point, allowing all to be saved through the ultimate act of love shown to mankind on the cross.
Jesus merely came to us to set an example: Sacrifice. Don’t make everything about YOU. Do things for others, even if it hurts. Thats what Jesus did for us.
I don’t expect many of you to understand the concept of the “covenant” or how it plays into religion, history, and our lives, so i’ll explain it as shortly and sweetly as possible. The old testament is the equivalent of the Jewish Bible, while the New Testament is the Christian Bible. Due to the fact that the Christian tradition includes the Jewish tradition, outside of the rules that Jesus changed, the Old testament is also studied by the Christian Faith, but it is not considered binding in the way that the “red text” is. (red text refers to the first-hand accounts of Jesus’ words. They are outlined in most bibles with red text.) Therefore, as a Christian, I do not mind refuting any piece of the Old testament, as it just doesn’t matter.
I could go on, and on, and on, and on, but I wont. I don’t expect a rebuttal, as posts like this never get one, but take it from someone who has taken and completed post-secondary religion, philosophy, and theological work; Your comprehension on the subject is not nearly close enough to warrant any sort of true discussion. Learn about what you hate so much, and then you’ll be able to form a strong argument against the existence of God and/or the truth behind Jesus Christ.
Comment by Hogey — 3 November, 2006 #
don’t forget, in medieval times the church was a lot ore then just a house of faith. the pope was basicly the sole ruler of a big part of europe. a lot of power in the church’s hand, they decided what the “petty” kingdoms in europe did or did not do.
too think nothing was cencored, edited or just ignored to keep this power is just plain daft.
@Anthony, 666 stands for nero not satan. this is widely accepted. too put it in perspective. at the time john wrote his revelations he was exiled by nero on a rock out on sea.
Nero branded jews and a lot of other followers inc. those who followed the teachings of christ with his mark (making the marked slaves effectively) (which makes a lot more sense then the microchip implant nonsense people think today… as if he could think that up, or even if he saw that in a vision realize it’s branding a mark). Nero also was a beast in how he behaved by all written accounts (he was downright insane by current standards and ripe to put in an asylum for the rest of his life) and made gross athrocities of various kinds. he was also the biggest danger and yes. beast to john and his contemporary people. I could write a book but the point is the marking etc everything in revelations can put into perspective with nero, which is also much more probable and feasable then any sci-fi ww3 type interpretation (with all that shit going on then.. why write about something 2000 years away.. it wasn’t of interest to contemporaries even if he had visions 2000 years into the future. maybe if the circumstance was different but nero back then was a real and present threat to all who believed and if he had succeeded it would have been an apocalypse for believers at the time, and we would not be discussing this belief system here at this moment.. it would have been eradicated by nero.. luckily he died…. call it an act of god if you will.)
as for the bible… the bible wasn’t written as a book.
the church collected all the gospels they knew of and chose 4 and bound those in a book. some stem from before jezus some several hundreds of years after. the bible isn’t as old as you want to believe. it’s not like the stone tablets and was written by men. from hearsay no less. years after the events described… sometimes over 200 years after the events the gospels talk about..
the best advice for the bible. even for the deepest religious person: take it with a grain of salt and common sense.
bible:
old stories.
hearsay.
1800 years of copying and editing.
translation errors (anyone know hebrew and latin.. or even better the extinct language jezus spoke himself: aramaic?)
political influence
and the list goes on… don’t take it at face value or too literal.
Comment by anonymous — 3 November, 2006 #
Here’s my responses to the first 10 questions:
1) Jesus didn’t have to die on the cross, but did so to sacrifice himself for our evil nature. Most will argue that this is some mystical, hoodoo deal that sends us to some alternate reality when we die, in either a good form (heaven) or a bad form (hell). This is bullshit. Heaven and Hell are not places per-say (as said by Jesus himself), but instead levels of relationship with others and with God. Jesus showed us the way to reach that level of relationship with God, and that is through selflessness, graciousness, and Love. However, to attain such values, one must sacrifice, and this is what the Cross was meant to achieve. Jesus dying on the cross was the most relevant way of showing us how to sacrifice, as what more can we give once we’ve given our lives?
2) Not necessarily. Jesus spoke of a holding place, called ‘Shaol’, which can also be coined as “Hell”. Shaol is a holding place of sorts, much like the catholic idea of purgatory. In Shaol, souls rest waiting for the second coming, but while in shaol, a soul is completely devoid of relationship or community. They are completely alone, waiting for their fate to be decided. The covenant established in the old testament with Abraham allowed the Jews a passage to heaven (relationship with God beyond our physical existance), so the gentiles were sent to Shaol upon death, to await their fate. When Jesus died, he allowed the gentiles a way into heaven directly, bypassing Shaol altogether. This is one theory. If this theory can be counted as true, then the answer to your question is:
No, not everyone went to hell, just the gentiles. The Jews already had access to heaven.
(keep in mind that heaven only refers to communion with God beyond our physical existance. Alternatively, Hell refers to the absence of communion with God, or, complete isolation for the rest of eternity)
3)People are imperfect, and have very little will in many cases. Get one going in one direction, and others will follow. That being said, the witch trials and events like it were more of a sociological issue than a religious one. It just so happened that the church was the equivalent of the state/courts at that time, so it was really the same as the US Justice system doing the same against middle eastern citizens today. Hence why we still use the loosely-coined term “witch hunt”.
4) Same as above. Religion is inherently a powerful thing, and can be exploited. It was, and such has been strongly documented in History.
5) Same as above (#5)
6) Your argument is flawed. You have taken a very left-wing viewpoint here and equated anger and wrath as “evil”. God is all-good, omniscient, and all-powerful. He is also fair and just. Therefore, in order to maintain his ‘goodness’, he must reward and punish those who act in good or bad ways. Being all-good does not mean being nice to everyone, no matter how hurtful or self-serving their actions are. It still allows for some anger should it come down to that.
A question like this comes down to the whole “WHY?!?!?!? (are we here?)” issue, and frankly, it cannot be answered. Some believe that God structured our existence like this in search of community, others believe it is just his nature. Due to the fact that I do not have God in my sock drawer, I do not know. God is all-good, but he is also just and fair.
7) I don’t get what you’re saying here… Mark 7:25-29 outlines Jesus’ healing of a Greek child after questioning the mother on the treatment of her child. When she replies in a manner that is acceptable, she finds her daughter free of the demon that inhabited her. Racist? how so?
9) Same as above. This is how society worked back then. “Why did the egyptians mummify their corpses when they could have cremated them?!?” Cause thats how they did it back then, as it matched the societal norm and religious thoughts of the day. If you’ve read the bible, you will see that Jesus would not allow slaves for himself, but students instead. Many times did he turn away those who wanted to serve him.
10) UGH! all the verses you have written there deal not with obeying your parents evil requests, but with the parents responsibility to discipline thier children and hold the responsible for their actions. Proverbs is merely a book written by David as a book of poems, and therefore shall be taken as heavily as Homer’s Illiad in this respect. The poetry of a king born 1000 years before Jesus has zero sway in refuting Christian beliefs. Its purely one man’s opinion, and are not considered divine words of wisdom. Same can be said of Deuteronomy and Hebrews, with Hebrews taking the most sway. However, in that passage, it only mentions that one should discipline their children, or they will not turn into strong individuals.
Theres the first 10. I could continue, but i’m out of time at the moment. THese questions can be answered, in due time. allow the flaming to begin.
Comment by Hogey — 3 November, 2006 #
good page. bible=ballocks
Comment by dave — 3 November, 2006 #
Biologists at the University of California, San Diego have uncovered the first genetic evidence that explains how large-scale alterations to body plans were accomplished during the early evolution of animals…. The achievement is a landmark in evolutionary biology, not only because it shows how new animal body plans could arise from a simple genetic mutation, but because it effectively answers a major criticism creationists had long leveled against evolution—the absence of a genetic mechanism that could permit animals to introduce radical new body designs.’
Comment by jedidiah — 3 November, 2006 #
This is really a silly series of questions. A bunch of these are just factually incorrect or based on misrepresentations.
For example,
QUOTE: If you are a Protestant or a member of an Eastern Orthodox church, explain why you are still using the Catholic Bible, which was formalized by a vote among (supposedly divinely inspired) cardinals and bishops in the fourth century CE, when you disagree with the idea that the Pope, who is higher in the Catholic hierarchy, is divinely inspired; if a Catholic, explain why your church accepts the canonical Bible while rejecting the Apocrypha (do not use the “divinely inspired” argument: Because I am not religious, I will not be able to accept it)
Answer: In fact the Protestants do not use the apocrypha, but the Eastern Orthodox and Catholics do use the apocrypha. Also there is a difference between divine inspiration and “infallibility”. The eastern orthodox believe the Pope is the patriarch of rome and is equal to the other Patriarchs (of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch).
These questions are not very well thought out, some are valid questions, but the majority are just plain dumb.
Comment by The Messenger — 3 November, 2006 #
arguing on the internet is like participating in the special olympics, you may win but you’re always a retard!
Comment by spolmpycs — 3 November, 2006 #
i dont understand. i thought the bible was the word of God. so even if there is one place where the bible contradicts itself, how can it still be considered the word of God who is all perfect? Furthermore, regarding the racism and sexism, just because it was considered societal norms to treat women and other races as inferior why isnt such behavior vehemently condemned in the bible? unless right or rong is determined by societal norms rather than a set values of placed by God, which in that case the bible was not the word of GOd but indeed the ideas of humans themselves.
Comment by henry — 3 November, 2006 #
About hogey;s comment about heaven or hell:Most will argue that this is some mystical, hoodoo deal that sends us to some alternate reality when we die, in either a good form (heaven) or a bad form (hell). This is bullshit. Heaven and Hell are not places per-say (as said by Jesus himself), but instead levels of relationship with others and with God.
u describe its as a “relationship”. where’s the evidence? or is this merely an interpretation or ure own and others in order to refute questions. If jesus himself stated that heaven or hell is a place then y leave it to interpretation?
Comment by henry — 3 November, 2006 #
Oooof I am capable of answering your little 150 questions, I really am but I am not in a position to spend the next 6 hours typing up exactly what I believe in every single one of your questions. So I will just generally address some of the most pertinent issues. Now for starters some of your questions do not have an answer. Like where did God come from he just exists… he was there at the beginning same thing as what existed before the big bang? Nothing existed at all. Certain questions about how the devil and God acts well besides that a human being cannot fathom how a supernatural being acts, or how someone was supposed to act 2000 years really are impossible for someone to answer. One can judge someone else’s actions through information but it is never a right thing to do. Now I do believe that 1000, 800, 700, and many years ago Christians did things that would be nowadays considered morally wrong, also today certain Christians do things that are morally wrong. Yet I am not going to apologize for them, nor is my faith shaken because 500 years ago some idiotic Americans unjustly burned women, or the spanish with their Inquisition murdered thousands of Jews and Arabs. I was not alive at that that time and that has nothing to do with me. If it makes you feel better even though you are not affected by it in anyway I apologize to you. Now let me be honest with you, I pity you, not because you lack faith, because I happen to believe that anyone who has lead a good life and is a good person will go to Heaven, independent or race or religion, but because you are an ignorant and prejudiced person, who feels high and mighty judging a group of people you know nothing about through the internet. You are acting as ignorant and prejudiced as those Christians that you so much hate or are unwilling to understand and listen. Anyone who is a close minded individual is a fool. I also believe that God is a third-person viewer he does not affect our life in any way, he gave us free will and all the things that happen in the world are a direct cause of the free will of someone else, hence why there is evil and good in the world at the end he simply judges what you did and sends you to heaven or hell. It is not unfair he does not hate you, he does what is considered justifiable, it is exactly what a judicial court would do to you, he punishes you according to your actions, no more no less. Well but back to your article, it was a very bad idea. Did you really expect ANYONE to sit down and answer does 150 questions, everytime I read one I knew the answer and I could write my train of thought and explain it to someone with no bible experience in person, may be one or two questions, but those 150… they are too long, and those that were already long answers you also add explain, add that to the fact you add nonsensical questions, like should Mary have aborted? Really, really childish of you, you only did this because you knew that no one would sit an answer and then you could go back to your life and say “gee all christians are stupid hypocritical non-believers not one of them wanted to answer my 150 questions which could easily fill up 1000 pages of a book”. You should take only 5 questions or 3, post them again and people will answer them.
A couple of tips: Read the bible, at least as a book of the greatest myth and collection of legends still in existence
If part of bibles seem the same keep in mind it is translated from a language that is more than 2000 years old, I am sure if you read the original you will find differences.
Do not ask stupid questions like where is hell or heaven… they are not actual real life places, they are other planes of existence to which we travel as souls once we die.
Keep an open minds, sometimes people will seem to have a better answer than you, more logical, and you will get mad and dismiss them as wrong, but then you are doing exactly what you judge Christians to do.
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING: Christianity like anything else is an idea, as an idea it is perfect, once you put int he human factor it automatically becomes corrupted and useless, there are good christians and bad christians like anything else in the world and you can’t judge all the christians by what jsut hte bad ones do, or did, 1000 years ago.
So grow up, take into account that everyone si entitle their opinion, and if I ever meet you I will happily sit down and talk, I HATE WRITING, and will promptly shut your mouth up, because I have read, understood, and analized the bible. Oh another thing, you can’t take the bible literally that is also a common mistake people do.
Comment by Jose Antonio De Obeso — 3 November, 2006 #
‘8. Explain why, when discrimination against women is clearly wrong, the Bible clearly supports the oppression of women. Answering this question entails refuting 1 Cor 11 and 1 Tim 2:11-15. NOTE: under no circumstances will I believe that discrimination against women solely on the basis of sex is morally acceptable.’
i looked up the 1 corinthians and this passage clearly depicts a sexist theme: ” a man ought not to cover his head since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.”
BOO-YAH
AS I STATED BEFORE. Hogey attempts to explain this sexism by blaming societal norms: back then such ideas were considered normal and correct. Howevor, even if PEOPLE believed such things were fine, does this mean God should also believe this? Moreover, why was this sexist theme supported rather than denied? Nowadays we have established that is is right and just to consider woman as equals of man. But God’s sense of what is just and right should not change just because the times have changed. So if the bible truly is the word of God then that means woman should still be considered inferior. The only explanation is perhaps the bible is not the teaching of God(i dont a perfect being such as He would consider is ok to be sexist), but rather by humans
Comment by henry — 3 November, 2006 #
cos the bible was written by man therefore all the sexism, racism, whatnots were left in.
If humans were created in the likeness of god then what about the animals? religion is like a drug for the masses keeps people in line its all about control anyway how do u think the vatican is so rich
Comment by sumone — 3 November, 2006 #
ok it was long established the bible was written by man, but this is nto the point since it is stated that God told them wut to write. So essentially one must think of it as God writing the bible. Basically this means, even if people believed that being sexist was ok, God should have SPECIFICALLY said something about sexism being bad whereas in the bible, He writes about stories and examples supporting sexism.
Comment by henry — 3 November, 2006 #
I like Jose’s view about anyone being able to go to heaven solely based on his actions. However, it’s unfair to a kid growing up in the ghetto to have the same chance as a kid growing up in a nice suburban neighborhood.
Comment by mao — 3 November, 2006 #
I’ll see what I can do about getting all these questions answered for you. It will take some time because my studies have me pinned right now. Physics makes me believe in a creator, this program we live in has an astounding order of operations. Here’s a paper I wrote in a philosophy class in 2003. It will give a little insight on why I believe in God. I follow logic, before I could really believe anything I had to determine whether or not I believed in “poof we’re here” or a specific design brought us about. Either way, I’ll mark this as a favorite and work on the questions posted.
Perhaps the most asked question amongst mankind is the question of origin. It is safe to say the question has skimmed every cognitive thinking persons mind at one time or another. Human beings have the concept of sentience, the ability to say I AM; its not necessarily a concept possessed only by mankind, but at this time no other species on Earth is known to posses this gift/curse. Throughout time many people have professed a creator while at the same time many have refuted this. Mankinds existence has been a constant search for truth. Its as if the first thought spawning other thoughts to seek completion in its own process is the question. The question is what inspires children to seek out all things and detect with there senses the measurements of all things available to them. The question is the story of mankind, the ultimate quest for why we are, the embedded configuration program that drives us all. The question has been the one existing inspiration behind all that man has accomplished. Journeys to far and unknown lands, the discovery of flight, mankinds walk on the moon; it always leads to the seeking of light, which is the Question.
It has been said that there is no proof that we exist due to a creator. What is proof? The Websters Dictionary provides this definition for Proof:
1 a : the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact b : the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning
2 obsolete : EXPERIENCE
3 : something that induces certainty or establishes validity
4 archaic : the quality or state of having been tested or tried;
especially : unyielding hardness
5 : evidence operating to determine the finding or judgment of a tribunal
6 a plural proofs or proof : a copy (as of typeset text) made for examination or correction.
7 : a test applied to articles or substances to determine whether they are of standard or satisfactory quality.
From this definition I find proof to be a combination of tests or facts that give an argument a true or false answer. It has been said that science disproves a creator; I have not seen any evidence that shows a creator to be false. Without the knowledgebase of all that is and ever was it would be impossible to prove such a thing. The multitude of combined variables that established life here on Earth can not be perceived by any person. The calculations that would need to be plugged in to establish such a thing go beyond our most sophisticated computers ability. To give an example of the complexity involved in the process of creation of life one could consider the following, for every number range is an infinite amount of numerical ranges. An example of this can be seen in this description:
In between every number is an infinite amount of other numbers, between 1 and 2 exist infinity. For instance, between 1.00001 and 1.00002 is an infinite amount of numbers. As an example I will merely state 10 numbers in between 1.00001 and 1.00002, which are 1.000010 1.000011 1.000012 1.000013 1.000014 1.000015 1.000016 1.000017 1.000018 1.000019 1.000020
to look more specifically at this example we could view 1.000016 and 1.000017 (listed above); in between these numbers is an infinite amount of numbers:
1.00001600000000000000000000000001 and 1.00001700000000000000000000000001;
The number existing in between the following range would be 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (100 Septillion). Between any of those numbers (from the largest to the smallest) is an infinite amount of numbers; it goes on forever.
The odds for life to be created by chance could be signified by rolling an infinite dice (where life is an exact number) having it land on an exact number; if everything is infinite, even by getting to roll this imaginary dice infinitely would not create life. One must remember the number that represents life would constantly change as the ever moving Universe changed.
Out of many theories there is one that is widely known that Ill touch base on. This theory has proclaimed to resolve The Question while claiming to eliminate the need for a creator; the theory is called The theory of Evolution. The argument has been made that evolution shows that there is no need for a God (creator), while people that believe in a creator say that evolution isnt possible. I fail to see where the two beliefs produce a logical argument, aside from the fact that evolutionists deny a creator, and believers of a higher power deny evolution. The two disagreements lack logical argumentation though; evolutionists still lack a valid origin, and believers accept the fact that they can not comprehend the intricacies of their God, yet dismiss a possibility of their creators work. When a blacksmith makes a sword, the blacksmith does not merely will a sword to be created. The blacksmith actually puts time into the sword to forge it. The blacksmith tempers the sword with heat as the metal is folded numerously to get out all impurities. I dont consider myself able to comprehend the inner-workings of a God, so how would anyone else consider them selves capable without knowing everything?
The programming of such intricate creatures such as the life on earth is one that demands astonishment. DNA exists inside every living organism. When a four legged animal is born into the world, within merely seconds it walks without observed direction. When a maggot hatches it stays in the form of a maggot long enough to continue its birthing process, once it is ready to form it becomes a fly and is able to do just that without observed direction. The fly performs an unobserved operation by devouring potential toxins. The world in which we live operates as a machine; its a cycle that empowers looping functions. This machine provides plant life across the face of this globe as well as the hidden depths of its oceans. This plant life converts Carbon Dioxide into Oxygen. Plants produce seeds designed to spread there offspring; some plants have ways of delivering there seeds by using the wind as the conveyer, how do plants know to produce such things to carry there seeds through wind, what tells plants to grow this way? Some plant life has no way of conveying there own seeds far, but there are other creatures that carry the seeds for the plants. Some of these creatures are bees, birds, and other insects. Bees produce honeycomb and the honey therein both of which are edible and provide excellent nourishment for them selves as well as mammals amongst other creatures. The plant life on land (when it has completed its life cycle or fell short due to external influences) It fertilizes the land with its corpse and allows the soil to become a suitable environment for more plants to grow there. According to some people, there are creatures which have no significant purpose (e.g. ants, wasps). I believe all creatures have a role to play in this program, even if its not clearly observed by the human species (e.g. DNA, before it was known of). Since we (the human race) dont know all facts of the Universe, rules that we have established are subjected to possible change if new facts are found; since this has proven itself true time and time again. Some examples of human nature to come to a conclusion on a topic without knowing the facts could be seen in the possibility of flight being denied, speeds of 60 miles per hour or greater being merely a dream, computer viruses being refuted by Mr. Norton himself (Maker of Norton Anti-virus), the sound barrier being an unattainable speed, the ability of stopping light (Achieved January 18th 2001), never achieving teleportation (first success completed in June 19th of 2002 with photons). The list goes on, no matter what is accomplished people still say there are other concepts that can never be achieved.
Out of all the creatures on earth Homo-sapiens are the most complex. We are bipedal, which requires many muscles to constantly adjust when standing, for balance. We are noted by evolutional theory as the highest on the food chain, thus explaining why we are the most abundant creature (excluding miniscule organisms). We are the one creature out of all others that hurts this machine in which we live. Every other creature does no harm to the earth; if it starts too (e.g. becoming to abundant in population), it dies off. In cases of overpopulation with animals or insects, mankind is to blame; tearing down forests to make homes or businesses, hunting and killing the overpopulated creatures natural predator. The fact that all creatures have an algorithm to adapt to the environment shows us there is a program. How does a program come about? When a computer is used for any of the multiple functions it can be used for it is serving our purpose. The computer to operate requires a program; an operating system on a computer gives us a foundation to build other programs upon. There is one problem with our operating systems though; they generally crash at one time or another. The program that we exist in never crashes, it never has flaws; it is constant and perfect. If this program in which we exist is so perfect, how much more complex is it than the operating system on your computer? Would you believe it if someone told you that computers were not created, they just formed due to a big bang? Technically (in the eyes of evolutionists) the computer did form due to a big bang; the big bang could be looked at as a mover. Among the many movers man finally arrives, man makes computers; therefore the big bang caused computers to come about indirectly. My question is (if the big bang theory proves true) what caused the big bang? In this machine we live in, how did so many variables shine in our favor that we are were we are now? It is just like I mentioned above with the numeric example, the only problem is this lottery couldnt be won.
If a victim of a murder tells police the story of their mishap (Through forensics and other evidence at the crime scene) the police are the only persons that know what happened (besides the criminal him/her self), unless the police tell the press or information leaks out. Lets say years after the unsolved crime an inmate came fourth and told police he could help them solve a case if he was given a break on his time in jail, if the man was given this break and then told them he had killed the victim from that particular case. How would the police know the inmate wasnt lying just to get out of jail? The inmate would have to describe the crime scene that no one else knew about. If the inmate did this, they would call this proof that he was the murderer. It just so happens that there is a book that provides a type of proof. Among facts and examples mentioned above, there is another source of information which provides scientific information; its called the Bible. My beliefs allow me to consider prophecy as proof. There is such proof from a prophecy told in the bible of a time when the Jewish people would get there home back. The prophecy mathematically worked out to roughly 1 day short (which I am sure is because I am not considering the Hebrew day which begins and ends during one of our days.) The prophecy is this:
Consider the fact that Biblical years = 360, 12 months, and 24 hours
and that Calendar years ( our years) = 365.25 (.25 makes up for leap year)
According to Ezekiel (Ezekiel 4:3-6 ), because of her disobedience and failure to repent, God put Judea (Israel) in world-wide captivity for 430 biblical years, beginning in 606 BC with their exile to Babylon. God freed the exiles in Babylonian captivity 70 calendar years later–as predicted by Jeremiah (Jeremiah 25:11), in the spring of 536 BC. Because only a few exiles repented and returned from Babylon, God became angry and added more years to the time of world-wide captivity, using the formula in Leviticus, below:
“And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins”. Leviticus 26:18 . See also Leviticus 26:21-28. So multiply by seven the number of years remaining (430-70=360), thus adding 7 times 360, or 2520 years, to the time of captivity. Prophecy was made in units of biblical years, (remember: 12 months of 30 days, or 360-day years). Calendar year is 365.25 days, so 2520 biblical years is equivalent to 2483.78 calendar years. Subtracting 535.4 (not 536.4, since there is no 0 AD), we get 1948.3782340862 (, which is the 138.4336755492 day of the year, or, May 14th, 1948, which is very close to the month and year of the declaration of the statehood. (May 15, 1948).
(The Signature of God pg. 193 – 207: Grant R. Jeffrey)
I actually did the math myself (As provided above) and came out with the answer.
One way that science has shown the bible to be a concern for consideration is this:
Recently it was discovered that two factors in our blood are closely related to the bloods ability to be able to clot quickly and safely to facilitate healing and resistance to infection. Medical researchers found that two different blood clotting factors, Vitamin K and prothrombin, are at the highest levels of your life (110 percent of normal) on the eight day of life. In addition they discovered that the blood clotting factor, Vitamin K, is formed in the blood of a baby between day five and day seven of the babys life. Therefore, of all the days of the babys life he eighth day of life is optimum day for an operation because of the high levels of vitamin K and prothrombin, which will clot the blood and facilitate wound healing.
(Signature of God pg. 187: Grant R. Jeffrey)
The bible says that babies are to be circumcised on the 8th day of life (Genesis 17:12)
There are many more facts that can be found in the bible that have been indexed in this book: The signature of God.
If the information in a book isnt enough to bring realization to a person that there is a God, then they can easily look at their environment and see it; its simply a matter of looking deeper into the subject, going past the constraints put upon them from environmental factors.
Comment by Kensei — 3 November, 2006 #
I Agree with most except the reference to pagan christs (I Suppose you meant saints) whereas HERAKLES (or hercules-A new age mistranslation) has almost NOTHING in common with a saint-figure, he kills his children in a frenzy, accomplishes 12 tasks to repent for them, gets rid of his wife, marries another woman who ends up killing him with a robe soaked in the blood of a centaur. (explain that one please).
2nd point was Dionysus( u not i) who happened to be the GOD of wine. I mean, he has nothing similar to Christ, he’s a sex-crazed symbol who caused an entire town’s male population to have never-ending erections because they did not believe. He’s also connected with Satyrs, again, animal-men who rape and drink. And women who have been ‘turned’ crazy.
Your references throughout were FANTASTIC except you lost me with the Pagan reference which has no relevance and frankly, it doesn’t grant you extra-credibility to punch names out of no-where.
Comment by Derquasy — 3 November, 2006 #
Some of these arguments are valid and are left to mystery. The majority are just stupid. For example #91: However, a more accurate translation would be, “My El, My El, why has thou forsaken me?” El is the name of a specific pagan god. Why would Jesus call out to a pagan god at the moment of his death?…. this is so stupid I cant even believe it. I can translate ancient Hebrew to English and it does not say this. Furthermore Jesus is quoting a prophetic Psalm. Go read Psalm 22. Duhhh… I cant believe how stupid this crap is. Quit wasting your time.
Comment by Jonas — 3 November, 2006 #
Well, in the bible it was clearly stated in many passages that their would be many false prophets who seek to corrupt what is said. When reading the Bible one has to consider the context because language can be misleading due to language error. The bible is to be used in the form of a matricy by cross referencing passages that are talking of the same incident to shed the full light on the subject. People try to read the bible in a linear format from front to back (which is ok, but it can make it very confusing IMO).
Comment by Kensei — 3 November, 2006 #
Okay, i didn’t bother reading them all, when i got to number 26 or so couldn’t read another one.
A good portion of your questions can be answered if you actually read this book called “When Bad Things Happen To Good People,” i suggest you read it if you’re actually looking for an answer.
if you don’t really believe in god, then why are you (or whoever wrote this) trying so hard to thrash it?
Here is my idea about why people believe in a god, We know that evolution took place. A scientist might say it’s a natural process of beings trying to adapt to changing surroungings, a person of faith would believe that god made the evolutionry steps happen and we are just at the latest stage of evolution.
i got that fromt he book and might not explain much so read the book.
P.S. i’m not religious at all and have my doubts about God’s existance, but this post is just plain stupid.
Comment by Rizzo — 3 November, 2006 #
“if you don’t really believe in god, then why are you (or whoever wrote this) trying so hard to thrash it?”
Because I feel that in the present day religion, especially Christianity (I have explained before why it is relevant to target Christianity before any other group) hinders the progress of mankind.
“but this post is just plain stupid.”
Funny how so many people have said this without backing it up, and those that have tried have been quite unconvincing, how about answering the questions?
This post does not question religion as a whole, it questions aspects of the bible, which as you say yourself can be interpreted differently.
How then can you call the person who wrote this ignorant, while not explaining how you choose to interpret it…
“El is the name of a specific pagan god. Why would Jesus call out to a pagan god at the moment of his death?…. this is so stupid I cant even believe it.”
Exactly, why would he?
Comment by junaman — 3 November, 2006 #
I think that kensei has written a very good bit of writing. He is basically contending that it is logical for a god to exist and that the bible provides proof of that god. Also loved the bit on evolution/creator as i have also contended that it is impossible to have 1 without the other whereas most people contend that they are mutually exclusive (always found that strange) With regards to the questionaire every point is valid!!! I will repeat this….EVERY POINT IS VALID. However the source of each and each problem within each point is not based on the reality or a situation aka “what is” but on HUMANS thoughts/perceptions/perversions on what is or what was. A quick example is that there are many different translations of the bible. certain words changing in sentences can completely change the meaning behind the words. There is no doubt in my mind that this has happened throughout the bible and i also believe it is quite possible that certain books have been left out by the people who voted which books should be included. Another form or perversion is by taking small paragraphs or parts of a message and focussing on these small parts without reference to the rest of the idea. To take a small part of writing out of context can completely change the message originally intended. People’s opinions and how they perceive a msg is basically the biggest reason i can think of for the questions in the questionaire. Many of the ideas in religion and the problems caused by these ideas seem to be humans trying to put words to things they don’t entirely understand. This can make things seem like a contradiction as the WORDS themselves contradict each other whereas the ideas behind them do not. Another example is where humans try to place words on the emotions of god. logically if there was a god that is all powerful why would he have the same emotions as humans. How can these be explained when humans can’t explain emotions themselves. Just ask anyone to tell you what love is. another examples are the ideas of heaven and hell. I believe that another problem to do with religion has to do with they way that religion was USED as a vehicle for individuals gain through greed and fear. For example churches used to charge people money to have their sins forgiven. This is an idea made entirely by men to make money, become rich and hold power. It had nothing to do with having their sins forgiven. I also think that it is a perversion where a sinner repents their sins to a man (priest) and asks forgivness, then the man judges the sinner and tells them what to do to be forgiven. Just another example of perversion. Sorry for the very poor writing quality and lack of sourcing, i am just trying to get ideas out there. Basically my main contention is that EVERYTHING wrong with religion is created by mankind one way or another. However this doesn’t make religion itself wrong. It merely means that you have to be very careful on what information you take in. When you think about it, and i mean really think, it is impossible for there not to be god. The universe is too perfectly imperfect for there not to be a plan to it all. For an example i shall assume the big bang theory happened. B4 the big bang there was energy. Floating in what?? for how long?? where did it come from?? why would a part of any of the energy be different from any other part?? what would cause an explosion so perfect that matter is created, and from this matter objects can be created, stars to give off heat and light, planets that orbit them perfectly (if planets were orbiting any slower they would be slowly sucked into a central point and be destroyed (aka earth into sun)) life to be created and then change from single cell organisms to multicell, right through the stages of evolution and end up with a range of beasts, diseases, virus’ that seem to contribute to each other perfectly without wiping out life completely. And at the top of the evolutionary cycle so far are humans. Humans are the only thing in known existance that have control over their life. Animals eat, sleep and multiply…we do all those things but at the same time we are in control of ourselves. We have choice. There is no reason whatsoever that evolution would require humans to be able to have choice. All the other animals survive without it. so why us?? what reason is there behind it?? what good is it?? why are we here?? These thoughts, unanswered, make the human race obsolete. With no reason for life it is human nature to destroy itself. Evolution would not create somthing like this as it means nature is not the survival of the fittest. it would only create something that is capable of these thoughts if there was an answer to them. I’m not saying i know the answer…just that there is an answer…and therefore there is a higher power at work as nature has no plan or self awareness. Sorry if this is really jumbled. Made sense in head but didn’t once i tried writing it down. I’m right in the middle of exam study so have massive brain overload and am forgetting normal words:P Cheers
Comment by Mez — 3 November, 2006 #
I think the amazing thing that you have done with this is pick out the verses to support your questions, and yet leave out the verses that proceed it.
When you read what you have listed and that only, it seems easy to believe what you want us to believe.
Such as..
79. Why would your god want to damn people by making them believe false things? (See 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).
If you read from verses 1 to 12, you will see that it is talking about the Anti-Christ(I believe), and in 11-12 it is talking about those who have followed the Anti-Christ and not accepted God.
It is very easy to persuade people when only what you want them to know/read is given. And an excellent job of that was done with these questions.
Comment by somethin — 3 November, 2006 #
If you don’t believe in God,every answers that posted are USELESS, you will never understand and accept them. because you don’t have FAITH in GOD in the first place.Humans are always speaks, never listens, too much questions, and finally they make the humans confused about him/herselves.
Forget Jesus Christ, believe in God first, understand God, in time you will understand Jesus Christ. I admit, Jesus is a complicated matter.True we need faith to understand Him. So, faith is important, because without it, we are nothing, just empty shell. I want to write more, but I’m not very fluent in english, maybe I will write my comment again in Indonesian.
Comment by Dody Templar Indonesia — 3 November, 2006 #
a little random, but theory of evolution? fossils dating back several MILLIONS of years? the chances of earth being the only planet in our known universe with living organisms? and if there are other organisms in other parts of our universe, what would that make the bible?
old testament = very silly
people who cant open their minds to modern science = extremely silly
who watched the new episode of south park wednesday night as well?!
Comment by r0xstrom — 3 November, 2006 #
I am a Christian, non-denominational, I hate denominations and i’ll tell you what I believe.
It’s a simple concept called happiness. Do whatever you want, WHATEVER you want. The only exception is that you cannot force unhappiness on someone else. If you are gay and your parents are unhappy about that, it’s their fault and that’s ok. If you like killing people, find someone who wants to be killed. Whatever you want, as long as you do not force unhappiness on anyone else. It’s flawless.
On a side note, there is not one word, phrase, sentence, or moral in the Bible that says homosexuality is a sin. It’s not a commandment and those are ALL that matter.
And as far as the Bible goes, you “haters” cannot argue that if we all were to follow the 10 Commandments, that this would not be a nearly perfect world. They are a wonderful moral code, take God out of it if you want… I don’t care.
By the way, we Christians pray for people. Don’t take offense to it, don’t be an asshole when we tell you we will pray for you. It’s like the people that get pissed on when you wish them a Merry Christmas because they don’t celebrate it, it’s a holiday and I’m wishing you a merry time. Shut the f*ck up and enjoy the holiday. When I tell you I’m praying for you, I am concerned, I care, and I simply want you to know that I hope one day… you’ll change your mind.
Comment by DangerousFat — 3 November, 2006 #
Faith is truly believing without tangible proof.
Most of your questions can be answered by reading the bible (note, I said reading the bible, not asking christians).
Christians are just as flawed, evil, and corrupt as any other people on this earth. Lots of good ones, lots of indifferent ones, lots that give christianity a black eye or worse. It just so happens I’m not that great of one, but at least I know where I stand.
We’re no different than you. We’ve turned to faith at some level. You have apparently turned to anger. Any writer or educated reader can sense the anger seething through every word written. I’ll take my faith over your anger any day.
Comment by hoyer — 3 November, 2006 #
Live by faith not by sight.
I agree that 90% of these questions are good ones, and yeah most of them do raise good points and there are lots of crazy things but it’s all about faith and experiencing the love of Christ on a personal level.. unless you seek that nothing makes sense.. this coming from some one who didn’t understand anything until I did so myself.
also there’s a lot about why do Christians do this and that to other people.. well imo they arn’t true Christians if they can’t express selfless love in every way and form. Christ wasn’t sent into the world to condemn the world but so that the world would be saved through him. I agree there is a lot of corruption in the world when it comes to Christians forcing their own beliefs on others through things like fear and condemnation.. Jesus himself would be disgusted with these kinds of methods and quite frankly it pisses me off too, it’s almost insulting and it turns something that’s supposed to be completely about love into hate which is the greatest sin of them all!
It’s all about uncondtional love, relishing in your conviction and giving up everything for a relationship based on faith.. if you seek that you will experience things that can never be explained in an article.
Comment by Zak Farrington — 3 November, 2006 #
Junaman, there needs to be more smart poeple like you in the world.
But there needs to be more smart christians too. Perhaps if at least half of us christians knew our Bible, you would have some legitimate answers for those questions. And their ARE answers.
There are few of us who can actually support what we believe in. I think that the problem with many christians today is that they get too caught up in the emotion of a supernatual experience to actually sit down and study the Bible, its meaning, and its validity.
Comment by cornish — 3 November, 2006 #
Firstly, half these “laws” in the bible you claim support racism, slavery, and female opression are not actual laws. You are forgetting the most KEY element in any type of study…HISTORICAL CONTEXT!!!!!!!!! THAT’S the way things were back in the day, whether you think it’s OK or not. When Paul tells women that they cannot speak in church, or that a man must rule over her, he is speaking to a PARTICULAR group at a PARTICULAR place at a PARTICULAR time that has PARTICULAR problems. Talk to any person who studies history, or cultures, or anything. Everyone who reads the Bible understands this, or should.
Why did God’s only son have to die? Because people started to want to live their own ways, do what they want, because the life God demands from us is to hard for them. You hear the argument all the time that “Christianity is for weak people.” GIVE ME A BREAK! I can’t think a lustful thought about a woman that is not my wife, I can’t think and evil thought about other people, I have to constantly watch what I say, watch, hear, how I act. I have to monitor my thoughts and my heart and my actions 24/7. Why? Not because I think i’m better than you, but because God calls us to love eachother. Do YOU do that every day? Do YOU think about other poeple before yourself? Or do you just spend your days criticizing other faiths and picking out apparent inconsitencies and judging other people? Perhaps you are looking at God the wrong way. Your looking at God through the eyes of humans who do (yes even Christians) stupid and cruel things. Why? Because we are HUMAN!!!! The WHOLE POINT of the Bible is to say that WE CANT be nice to eachother, we CANT live civilized, we CANT be pure, we CANT not think of other women sexualy, we CANT be a good person. That’s why Jesus died, the punishment for sin (or doing any of those things and more I just listed) was death! Jesus came to die for us, as God’s only son, so that we didn’t have to….I am in shock at how poeple can bash Jesus, after the sacrifice he made. Sure people can be cruel, humans can kill, tear homes apart, cheat, lie, commit atrocities, rape, destroy…but that isn’t God!!! Sure the Bible “appears” to have laws in it that seem cruel and impossible and wrong, but you haven’t studied the text, the culture, and the entire biblical and cultural context properly. Go to a Seminary, ask a professor HOW to do that, then come and try this whole thing again…
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
None of us no where we are going so we simplly try to anwser it but we cannot. So shut the hell up and sit down and just live and don’t worry.
Comment by Deathwish — 3 November, 2006 #
Yah and what’s with this “Don’t pray (sorry, prey) for me, I hate you!” stuff???
It’s an honor when someone, who is probably praying for a lot of people (out of the goodness of their heart and the passion they have for asking God to help watch over people) says they will pray for you.
If a Jewish guy came up to me and said, “Happy Chaunakkah (or however u spell it)” I wouldn’t tell him to go die somewhere, I would say thanks and probably say it back…out of respect to him as a person. (Now for you feminists out there, it could be a girl to!!!!)
Oh and the remark about why we address God as “father” and how that is sexist. I doubt God is a man, considering the Bible refers about God as both man and woman in different part, he is neither. He is a spirit, but God picked a word (Father) so that we could relate to him. He took a word that all humans understand and used it to relate to us…Jesus didn’t come as a guy to sanctify maleness, he came as a guy to relate to our humanity. He could have come as a woman, but he didn’t…….get over it.
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
Excelent site with a lot of these answers
Comment by trythis — 3 November, 2006 #
Oh and another thing about Jesus being male. The reason he probably was male was for the fact that women were seen as little more than a donkey, or a possesion, in those days. Being a male would have given Jesus the ability to become a Rabbi and hold ALOT of authority in his time. OR, maybe Jesus was just born with the right chromosome to make him male…..maybe??
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
wow very good article man, even thought u didnt write it lol, but good job posting it
also, if ur an atheist than i’d like to tell you a little about the Qur’aan if you like(not trying to get u to convert, i just wanna say some points), just email me at baboon-harbour@hotmail.com
thnx
Comment by Haroon — 3 November, 2006 #
As well, for the questions about Heaven and Hell……
How the HELL (no pun intended) are we supposed to know what Heaven and Hell are like? Do you see little travel booths booking tickets? That is the most rediculous question amoung the many up there, because no one can answer that!!!! WE DONT JUST GO TO HEAVEN OR HELL AND COME BACK!!! The bible does give some reference to Heaven, and it being filled with Elders and some cool creatures (read Revelations, if you hadn’t figured out what that book was about yet…it’s contains details about of what Heaven was like, and more!) And of course the Bible talks about Sheol, which refers to the grave (Psalms 18 is a good one)….but you can’t expect an answer to that…and if you can, then you’re full of some sort of something…
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
You cannot put reason in faith.
In the Inquisition time there was no “human rights” as we have now. You cannot judge those times with present day values.
And, the Roman Church made a mistake when they apologize for Inquisition and Galileo. In fact, in Faith terms, I DO believe that the Earth is the center of the Universe.
So, the FAITH is irrational. Don’t mix these things so you can look smart.
I salute you!
Comment by Armageddon — 3 November, 2006 #
Adam and Eve and the tree? Why put it there? Because God ALWAYS gives US the choice. God is a gentleman, he NEVER forces himself on anyone. (”Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.” REVELATIONS 3:20)
So God gave Adam and Eve the choice, because God loves and respects us that much. He made us in his image, so he has to give us the choice. Like we have the choice to be an atheist, or be a follower of Christ.
I’m not claiming to have all the answers, but I’m sure you can see the simplicity in these common sense answers. Or maybe you can’t…either way is your choice.
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
The original Hebrew name of Jesus was “Yoshua” (sounds like Yeshuah). Then it was probably turned to Jesus (sounds like hezus) then Jesus as we know it.
Look up the hebrew words of the name, that’s where you find it.
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
Ok, where in the Bible does God threaten us with Hell?
It’s a simple concept. If the creator of the Universe, who loves and cares about You, asks you to do something…and you don’t, then you disobey him…which is bad. Since God is pure good, without evil, and without anything bad, you obviously cannot be where God is….so where else can you go? It’s not a threat, its the logical location where you would end up. Hell is the place where everything NOT God goes….you don’t want to go to hell, then maybe you should try to open an ear to God…He’s not forcing Himself on you, so don’t whine about Him forcing Himself on you if you’re not doing what He says anyways…
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
50. Explain how your god can be “just and merciful” in light of Exodus 20:5.
Read my quote about Jesus and why He had to die for us for that answer…
God is just because those who directly disobey Him get punished (they had many chances) and merciful because those who sin but still turn to Him will be saved….
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
98. In light of the Trinity, angels, the Virgin Mary, etc., isn’t Christianity polytheistic? If the Trinity is three who are one, why the three names? Justify your answer.
I like the idea of an apple, there are 3 parts to an apple…the core, the flesh, and the skin. Or water, there are 3 forms of water: steam, liquid, or ice.
Why do the parts of an apple need 3 names if it is one thing? Why the same with water?
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
Rob, I applaud you.
Glad there’s at least one smart christian out there
Comment by cornish — 3 November, 2006 #
91. Matthew and Mark say that the last words of Christ were, in Hebrew, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” This has traditionally been translated as, “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?” However, a more accurate translation would be, “My El, My El, why has thou forsaken me?” El is the name of a specific pagan god. Why would Jesus call out to a pagan god at the moment of his death?
El means God…look up the greek translation of the word man!!! Do your homework!!!
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
You guys learn to fucking read. HE DID NOT WRITE THIS!
Comment by Mcgeb — 3 November, 2006 #
99. Have you read the entire Bible? If not, how can you be devoted enough to try and convert me to a religion that you don’t know that much about? Isn’t knowing as much as possible about something necessary to understanding it? Isn’t understanding something necessary to being completely devoted to it?
Have YOU read the entire Bible??? Have you really looked into the context, and the greek and hebrew and aramic root words? Then don’t you DARE lecture me about it, because half of these questions are filled with mistakes…
Like the question:
39. Explain why Jesus, who was anti-Gentile (see Mark 7:25-29) and anti-sex (see Luke 14:26 and Matthew 19:12), would want to be anointed with oil in a pagan sexual rite after his death (see your definition for #38).
WHAT BIBLE IS THIS GUY READING!!!!!!
These quotes have NOTHING to do with ANYTHING he is saying. Sure the quote about Jesus where he says we must hate our brothers sisters, father, before we can enter kingdom is comfusing, but it has NOTHING to do with the question the guy asked!!! (And by the way, Jesus was making a point…Jesus obviously wants us to, look at Matthew 5:43, 19:19, 22:39, Mark 12:31….but I bet you missed those, didn’t you?)
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
Settle down Mcgeb, we know!!! We say “You” as in the author of the survey…or at least I do…
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
106. If it was foretold that Jesus was to be crucified, and if he knew this, and if he was the son of your god, why did he do everything he could to avoid being crucified? (See, for instance, Matthew 26:39).
I’m pretty sure you just answered your own question with that Bible verse…Jesus says “Pass this cup from me, but YOUR will be done.” (paraphrase)
Man, this survey is funny…in a sense that it is a joke…
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
76. Why was it OK for the ancient Israelites to sacrifice animals to their god, while it is wrong for modern religions to sacrifice animals to their gods? Justify your answer.
CONTEXT BUDDY CONTEXT!!!!!!
Thats the way things were in that day!!!!!
AND that’s what God at the time demanded of them because Jesus hadn’t come. When Jesus came, he took away the need to sacrifice animals because He took the place of every animal…Jesus worth was sooo great it coveres all of humanity, every person ever born EVER. Why was his worth so great? He was the only Son of God…that’s pretty valuable…
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
87. Christ giving himself up on the cross was a great gesture, true, but wouldn’t it have been more sensible for him to continue spreading his message until he died a natural death? Answer this question in light of your answer to question #1.
You completely miss the WHOLE idea of Jesus dying. It wasn’t like Jesus woke up one morning and said, “Hey, I think I’ll die a painful death today…just for the fun of it.”
He did it for a reason!
WHy? Look at my responses above…
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
105. According to Luke, Mary knew that she was pregnant with the Messiah. Living in the times she lived in, she must have known the scripture; therefore, she must have known that he would have to suffer horribly during his life. Was it moral for Mary to carry her baby to term, or would it have been more humane for her to have an abortion? Explain.
Actually, if you did proper Exegesis and Hermaneutical study, and you actually READ the Bible properly before saying these questions, you would realize that the Jews never beleived the Messiah would suffer and die. They thought he would come in on a white horse the save the day. That is why the disciples were so devistated after Jesus left, and why Thomas doubted soo much…why they were so confused when Jesus told them he was going to die…once again, READ the book…you might learn some stuff
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
130. What was it that was so bad about eating an apple that death had to result from that act?
HAHAHAHAHAHA
……..oh its a serious question?
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
131. What was it about humanity’s torturing and killing of your god’s only son that made your god so happy that he again promised eternal life to everyone who believed in him.
He’s YOUR God too, whether you beleive in Him or not…and it wasn’t that God was made happy, but His wrath was. Remember the verse you so boldly claimed Jesus made to some pegan God “My God, why have you forsaken me?” God was soo disgusted with the sin that was on Jesus that he had to look away, and Jesus knew this…being God himself.
No, it wasn;t God that was satisfied…but His wrath. He demands blood for every sin. Every time you blaspheme YOUR and MY God, you sin, and Jesus took a whip to the back because of it…so that you don’t have to….be a little more respectful, k?
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
149. What are the requirements for being saved? Some sects says that faith alone is enough; others say that faith without works is dead. The Bible supports both these viewpoints. What does your sect think?
OH MAN! ONCE AGAIN you manage to make a FOOL out of yourself with your lack of proper EXEGESIS!!!! The “faith” that Paul and James are talking about are not the same!
I’m not going to to tell you why, actually DO the research YOURSELF!
Christianity isn’t a load of crap. It didn’t hoodwink billions of people dude…only Satan can do that…
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
What a biased peice of nonsense written just to stir up some controversy. I am not remotely religious, and even though you have some good points, by phrasing them in such condescending and arrogant ways isn’t going to get you anywhere.
“Refute these passages in 100 words or less”….fucking moron.
Comment by NH — 3 November, 2006 #
And before I go to bed….
Just wanna say sorry for looking my cool. I sound a bit sarcastic at some points…and I do apologize for that. It’s not very Christian of me to be sarcastic…but i don’t regret what I said.
You CANNOT expect people to convice people that you’re so right when you base questions of misconceptions and lies….you are doing the very thing you are trying to “prevent” Christians from doing.
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
love reading stuff like this raises ?’s which i like seeing people debate against or for i am neither christian or a atheiest nor anyother religion i am my own person who lives life as i see fit i do belive in god and gods i do belive in enlightenment and i am open to all religions but the points that J has raised are valid and i deserve respect.
Comment by ELaytrix — 3 November, 2006 #
First of all, I’m not a Christian, and second, I agree with you that there are many imperfections in the Christian religion, but humanity is plagued with contradictions and irregularities. Anyway, even if there are contradictions in Christianity, everyone has a right to believe in what they they want to believe, you can’t make them think otherwise. They have no obligations to justify themselves or their faith to others.
Well, blatantly, you’re attacking the Christian religion and “exposing its incompetence” as it were. Stop hating u hater.
Comment by GI — 3 November, 2006 #
I appreciate and agree with your non-belief. I was at one time a born again (born and raised). However, you have actually fallen victim to giving events credence that never really happened one example: the exodus. There is not a single piece of evidence it ever occured at all. And not for lack of looking. The logistics of the event itself preclude it’s possibility, at least as related in the bible. An excellent work by Joseph Whelles/Wheless(?) called “Is it gods word” totally blows that and many other myths of the bible to shreds. The book has stood the test of time since 1925 and it’s companion “Forgery in christianity” are must reads for refuting the bible no nothings. Both can be downloaded on the net for free. They are lenghty and very well documented with references. Is it gods word uses only the bible to disprove the bible. Something I haven’t seen anyone else do. Another is “The christ conspiracy”, that book made my mind reel. The FACT that there were 15 crucified saviors for the sins of mankind identical to the jesus myth, before jesus prevents my belief. Why would a god use a pagan idea to bring his truth I dont know. Couldnt he use something unique, something simple and easy to understand so that even the simple could understand it, without the need of an entire priest craft to “interpret” it for us, puleez. I have read the bible cover to cover 7-8 times and I get sickened with it’s ignorance. Only knowledge, not faith will save us. Till man becomes educated he will cling to obsurdities. As Robert Ingersol said “give me one pair of helping hands over 1000 pairs of praying lips”. Mankind will not have attained to it’s height till the last stone from the last church,synagogue,mosque etc.. falls on the last priest, pastor, rabbi, imam etc.. One piece of advice: I understand your pissed and you should be, but this forum will get you nowhere and you will not change a single religionists mind. Believe me, I tried. I ended up losing my marriage over this as my wife is still a cult victim/member as is my son. Hell, my dad is a cult leader, I mean pastor. All you end up doing is alienating people. Go live a happy life in spite of them all. You cant save someone from themselves. One last suggestion for all: Spurn bribes of heaven and threats of hell, Do good for good is good to do. Spinoza.
Comment by DJ — 3 November, 2006 #
Anybody who believes in a god is a complete moron, full stop.
Comment by The King — 3 November, 2006 #
heh
just asked my religious girlfriend these questions… she is not too happy with me now…
hahaha
classic
Comment by Ralphy — 3 November, 2006 #
Awesome…. just awesome.
Quote of the day btw :
Me(not me.. a poster named Me): “ok, first of fuck you why don’t you actually post the quotes in stead of the numbers? i hope you go to hell and get raped by a big black gay man”
Junaman: “Oh, and being big, black and gay will most certainly warrant him a place in hell won’t it…..
FUCK YOU ”
*CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP* Amazing how ignorant/hypocritical religious people can be eh?
Great comeback Junaman. Great
Comment by Casey — 3 November, 2006 #
Oh nice, like all you non-religious people are perfect and without your stupid assumptions and comments. Get over yourselves.
Comment by DangerousFat — 3 November, 2006 #
Does god has any mercy, if so, why he has to toture his son to forgive us
Comment by adam — 3 November, 2006 #
Nice ROb. Really.
Comment by somethin — 3 November, 2006 #
Come on guys – some of these questions are easy to answer – and further up someone said that it is proven that people are born gay – don’t choose to be gay – what rubbish.
My sister is a psychologist – studied many years – and one of the things she studied was gay people – and she told me that people are defnitle not born gay – but choose to be gay.
Some people are born more feminine – but not gay – and society just labels them gay – and so they choose to be gay.
And my extra 2 cents – a gay guy came to our church – he said he couldn’t get close to the lord – pastor said its cause you gay – let me pray for you – he said why not – worth a try – 3 years later – and now hes married and expecting his first child with his beautiful wife.
Comment by me — 3 November, 2006 #
106. If it was foretold that Jesus was to be crucified, and if he knew this, and if he was the son of your god, why did he do everything he could to avoid being crucified? (See, for instance, Matthew 26:39).
I’m pretty sure you just answered your own question with that Bible verse…Jesus says “Pass this cup from me, but YOUR will be done.” (paraphrase)
Man, this survey is funny…in a sense that it is a joke… *****
I just realized I read the question wrong, and never really answered it. Jesus DIDN’t do everything He could to get out of it. This quote this guy uses quotes Jesus saying “Take this cup away…” By Jesus saying this, it was more of His humanity coming out, he was afraid….Im pretty sure you DO realize that Jesus WAS human (even though fully God) and that you being attacked, stabbed, stuck up on a cross is not a fun thing to do…so SURE He prayed to His Father out of fear, but he ALWAYS said “but Your will be done.” You need to read the WHOLE Gospel…instead of randomly picking out quotes that suit your agenda…sure alot of these quotes make no sense if you don’t read them in the proper CONTEXT (again! what a word!).
And its funny how the guy who posted this whole argument only read the OT…who’s really the ignorant one?
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
****7. Explain why, when racism is clearly wrong, Jesus was clearly a racist (see Mark 7:25-29). NOTE: under no circumstances will I believe the idea that racism is morally acceptable.****
I know I already addressed this, but I wanted to point out another flaw. This verse, has NOTHING to do with Jesus being racism…AT ALL. Actually go and read it!!!!!! Wow, I cannot beleive someone actually put this up here…..this is rediculous!!!
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
I do not have a problem with people who do not beleive in God. GO for it, you are allowed your own beliefs, and you are allowed your own views….but don’t dare to start spitting out twisted words, and half baked arguments, and start coming down on God because you choose to turn your back on Him…You don’t believe in Him, FINE, but I do….
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
Does god has any mercy, if so, why he has to toture his son to forgive us
Comment by adam****
Nice question adam,I addressed it above, take a look at some of the above quotes I posted.
Comment by ROb — 3 November, 2006 #
what a brilliant post and debate
juna mans questions are all perfectly logical
and if you take away the phycholigical factors involed in being religious you start to ask these questions.
I would estimate at least 85% of christians to be born into a the conscience of that religion often growing up listening to short stories and quotes from the bible, being tought the creation story,heaven and hell and all the media influences that come along with living in a modern predominantly christian media driven society
if god is real then why would he leave all the power of his words to us in a book that can be manipulated and interpreted in different ways,
surely there would be some devine supernatural connection with god from birth
how does a young musld child no he is praying to the wrong god ?
he doesnt he simply follows the rules of his culture and tries his best to live by the karan there is no choice involved there
by the time he is able to think for himself these beliefs become installed deep in his mind ,
just look at the structure of the bible theres a muti faceted answer to every question – god works in mysterious ways ?
Comment by kanye — 3 November, 2006 #
****A Post by DJ – “An excellent work by Joseph Whelles/Wheless(?) called “Is it gods word” totally blows that and many other myths of the bible to shreds. The book has stood the test of time since 1925 and it’s companion “Forgery in christianity” are must reads for refuting the bible no nothings”****
OK, firstly, this guy obviously is a no name whose arguments have no real standing, if he did there would be more of an impact and I would have heared on him….obviously not.
Second, you quote that this book has stood the test of time for 80 years….hmmmm, im pretty sure the oldest manuscripts from Matthew were found in 50-70 A.D., and the bible was established around 300 A.D….so who I trust, a book from a no name guru thats 80 years old that i have NEVER heared of, or a book that HAS REALLY stood the test of time….I’d be an idiot to trust your book “DJ”
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
just a simple opinion on a lot of this debate, i think a lot of people are confusing divine law and dogmatic laws (if you don’t know what i mean with this: divine laws are actual rules who supposedly came from god himself.. best example i can think of are the tablets with sins and virtues. dogmatic law are laws thought up by man, not god but quite often made out to have come from the divine but never did. personally, i follow god’s decrees but dogmatic (read church) laws, nope and i don’t think god will mind that i didn’t stick to the rules of a bunch of old geezers trying to stay in power)
Comment by David — 4 November, 2006 #
Someone mentioned god told us what to write in the bible. where did you ever get this from.
first of all noone wrote the bible, it’s a compilation of 4 texts… and a bad one at that since they discarded over 30 other “holy” gospels because it didn’t fit with the church’s idea’s.
2nd if the bible were a text written to us it would not have been written as stories or actually accounts/journalism.
3rd one book, which is said to be god’s actual words and thus written in that way (like he’s talking to you) is the koran, which in my opinion is from the same god (whatever you want to name him) and should sit next the bible in your bookshelf.
Comment by Holy? book — 4 November, 2006 #
Let me guess, you believed the Davinci Code and Holy Blood, Holy Grail? Didn’t you?
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
“god is dead”, “the sign of a true catholic”
Comment by Dogma — 4 November, 2006 #
The sign of a true catholic? I think you lost us…
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
“Let me guess, you believed the Davinci Code and Holy Blood, Holy Grail? Didn’t you?” if this was meant for me…. nope never read the davinci code or the other book, actually i enjoyed the documentary which easily throws all that BS in the junk pile… both those books were never intended to suggest a reality. they are novels, thrillers…. sci fi.. and completely based in fiction without a shred of proof for any of the idea’s…. i do actually like to think of the holy grail as the female womb though since the womb means life and offspring but that has nothing to do with the fictional novels you mentioned.
good thrillers though from what i heard
if you believe the davinci code you might as well also believe the enterprise finding god on a lanet at the center of the galaxy in one of the movies..
(ps davinci was a heretic who did not believe in god but took nature as his god and teacher so he would never be involved with something like that)
Comment by Holy? book — 4 November, 2006 #
This might be redundant, seeing so many religious and non-religios people have posted, but i’ll give my two cents anyway. It seems obvious that the bible itself isn’t exactly in the state it was intended. It has been changed and re-written so many times that little or none of the original material is in. It has been changed to serve the purpose of spreading the religion, so that everyone followed the same moral ethics, and in order for the church to gain influence. Not for any noble cause, it seems, but just to gain wealth and power for the clergy. Don’t believe in the bible, and certainly don’t take it literally! Christianity is something else. It is a belief in a god. It seems to me the only “sure” thing about god, is that he is infallible, or in other words: Perfect. But since all people have a different opinion on what “perfect” is, how can he live up to everyone’s expectations? (Or half of us or so, depending on how many are truly evil and don’t go to heaven.) I think it is absurd to believe in a being that hasn’t shown himself (or herself, you decide), done anything, talked to us or in other ways made us aware of his existence other than the words of some people who claim to have “found” him, or some book, rewritten x times to fit the purpose of men, not god. Whether there is some sort of divine being is hard to say. Though I highly doubt it, one thing is for sure. Don’t waste your time on it. Use your common sense, and treat others as you’d like to be treated. That way, we all win. If there is a god, i’ll believe in him in purgatory or wherever he shows himself to me. If there isn’t, well.. so what, the world can still be awsomely beautiful without a god.
Comment by StefRuleroftheUniverse — 4 November, 2006 #
forgot, if you mean the bible being a compilation of 4 out of 30+ gospels. this is a well known fact which the church no longer even denies.
Comment by Holy? book — 4 November, 2006 #
Then you must know the idea of the church throwing out 30 gospels because they didn’t fit with their “ideas” is a load of BS. That is what the Da Vinci Code states, which is why I was wondering if you beleived it or not. Actually, there was never a refuting of Gospels, only ones called the Gnostic Gospels which were fakes…do some research it’s actually very intersting…
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
it’s just a quote out of a comedy movie called dogma Rob. im not being serious. should whatc it though.. at least if you can have a laugh about religion without being instantly offended (self humor is healthy…)
Comment by Dogma — 4 November, 2006 #
The “gospels’ you claim they threw out were written 60 years after the accepted gospels such as Matthew, Mark, and the rest if the 24 books in the NT. The gospels we have were all written within lifetime of the actual apostles…thats why we kep them, because the perosn who wrote it either knew the poeple who knew Jesus, or knew the Apostles…the Gnostics were written too far afterwards to be trustworthy…all this superstition seeped in….and THATS a common known fact
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
This is not for you buddy, it’s for people who do believe that
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
I think i do a lot of research thank you… I study theology in Milan. Maybe you should also keep track of actual statements by the vatican on this…………………………………………………..
Comment by Holy? Book — 4 November, 2006 #
And I study theology in Toronto…your point?
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
You should know about the Gnostic Gospels then right??
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
My point basicly is: what does the church, the book and all that have to do with our actual god?
I don’t trust men. especially men who don’t want to lose their hold over the people. the church had a lot to lose back then. personally but not quite sure on this: what do you think the 4 gospels they picked were before they were branded real and the others were branded as gnostic bs… and who was that guy to make that decision which is real and which is bs and for whatever reason? (john… come on…… the other 3 ok but revelations, revelations was simply about current events in the period it was written.. being under threat by a maniac called nero and subsequently the beast)
I think people take it too literally, forget the time and circumstances when the texts were written and thus lost perspective on what they are actually about… not all of the gospels but some in any case. what lot’s of people believe revelations to be superimposed on our modern day is to me just about as believable as starwars or the lord of the rings. just the fact that 666 equates to the name nero should ring a bell for everyone believing it’s about a coming world war.
btw if my writing lacks here and there.. i couldn’t sleep last night and am practically falling asleep on my keyboard :p
Comment by Holy? Book — 4 November, 2006 #
My point was simply that im not shouting stuff without any foundations
Comment by Holy? Book — 4 November, 2006 #
Actually the church only affirmed these gospels because they were already in use, they didn’t pick them out of a pile…the Gnostic Gospels they through out because they were not trustworthy….WHY? Because they were written too many years after the gospels we know, (those gospels, again, were written in lifetime span of the apostles, and people who SAW these events) and gnostic thinking and tradition seeped into these Gnostic gospels….thats why they were denied, not because a bunch of old fat men thought they didn’t line up to their view of Jesus…they were’nt historically authentic.
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
PIck up a book called “New Testament Scriptures” by John Drane
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
just read the sister psychologist studying gay’s .
I don’t want to bash you or your sister but just wondered.. when did your sister study this? the research into this using catscans of the brain is very very very recent.. 2006 or 2005.
and yes there is a difference on images taken from born gays and heterosexual people… and no the researchers were not gay trying to find an excuse…
how it works, if it’s what makes them gay is not certain yet. what’s known is images from homosexuals are different in a certain part of the brain then images taken from heterosexuals.
Some images from homosexuals did not have this difference which is suggested to mean you have born gays and people who choose it for some reason (trauma, upbringing etc.)
this doesn’t necesarily prove anything. but it’s an interesting discovery.
personally im religious and straight and have no problem at all with gay people. don’t think god has either.
off to have dinner and much needed sleep now.
lovely discussion but they should delete comments like F*ck …… or “that’s not true. *dot* no explanation on why or anything.. would love to see this continu on a proper message board with a fair moderator just to del the empty messages
Comment by Holy? Book — 4 November, 2006 #
god you’re keeping me here Rob
i don’t truly believe the gospels were written so soon after the facts they describe. one reason would be the huge percentage of illiteracy in those days..
this is completely unsure i honestly admit and i’d have to look it up when i’m at my place. but dating done suggest some of the real gospels were written some 200 years after the fact. but like i said i’m like 1% sure on this.. it’s something i remember reading but very vaguely. i’ll try and see where i got that info from.
really going now, hope we can talk a bit more on theology Rob, here or elsewhere.
take care everyone
Comment by Holy? Book — 4 November, 2006 #
I actually have a DVD that talks about this particular fact, and it refers to a manuscript that was found of Matthew around 60 A.D.
I do have the DVD with me, it’s at my home home, not here at my apartment…I’ll let you know…
Thanks to you too dude, I enjoy this!
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
http://www.amightywind.com/hell/testimonies.htm
Comment by Genu — 4 November, 2006 #
No offence dude, but that is the sort of thing that make us Christians look like idiots. I know it’s all in good intent, and I appreciate it, but it’s kind of a stretch, don’t you agree? I don’t like pretending to know the answeres to questions of Heaven and Hell because there are none…none that we can attain. Sure, that may not be good enough for some people…they want “proof”, but that’s not our responsibility to give them…it’s Gods.
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
No offence dude, but that website is the sort of thing that make us Christians look like idiots. I know it’s all in good intent, and I appreciate it, but it’s kind of a stretch, don’t you agree? I don’t like pretending to know the answeres to questions of Heaven and Hell because there are none…none that we can attain. Sure, that may not be good enough for some people…they want “proof”, but that’s not our responsibility to give them…it’s Gods.
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
here’s one for you,
If god is perfect and is male (apparently)
he therefore has a penis……….one of the ugliest scrabs of skin known to the human race – how the hell is that perfect??????
Comment by notsosilentbob — 4 November, 2006 #
*****here’s one for you,
If god is perfect and is male (apparently)
he therefore has a penis……….one of the ugliest scrabs of skin known to the human race – how the hell is that perfect??????*****
Um nowhere in the Bible does it claim that God is a man, and that he has a penis. Have you READ the Bible??????
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
Junaman, your comments are open-ended, you paint with a broad brush. How could anyone answer you on any question, whether Christian or non-Christian? Your comments are typically inflammatory, colored with exaggeration and euphemism. So, increase your clarity of thought and writing, then maybe I can respond with a biblical answer. But remember your starting point and analysis and opinion is by no means objective. Instead, they connote superiority in accordance with your own judgments and perspectives.
Comment by Will — 4 November, 2006 #
*****114. Don’t you think that the idea that no matter what we do, we can never be good and righteous without help from your god (Isaiah 64:6) fosters an unnatural and unhealthy dependency on him?****
The whole point of Christianity is the realization that we are a wreck, and can do nothing without God (Hebrews 1:3).
Like the 12 Step Program for Addictions, the first step is to admit your utter helplessness and realize you have lost all control over your life. This is a sign of Humility, of repentance, and of helpesness…this is what God wants from us (Psalm 51:17, 2 Kings 22:19, Matthew 11:29). Is this unhealthy? No, is it unhealthy that a newborn child has to utterly rely on its mother for every single thing? No, its very healthy…its how the child survives. This is the sort of spirit God want’s from us…that we totally and utterly rely on Him for everything, because “Everything comes from God.” (1 Corinthians 11:12)
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
@henry:
“About hogey;s comment about heaven or hell:Most will argue that this is some mystical, hoodoo deal that sends us to some alternate reality when we die, in either a good form (heaven) or a bad form (hell). This is bullshit. Heaven and Hell are not places per-say (as said by Jesus himself), but instead levels of relationship with others and with God.
u describe its as a “relationship”. where’s the evidence? or is this merely an interpretation or ure own and others in order to refute questions. If jesus himself stated that heaven or hell is a place then y leave it to interpretation?”
I use the word relationship for lack of better word. Jesus himself taught about the aforementioned “Shaol”, or translated, “holding place”. In Jewish tradition (remember, Jesus was a Jew), Shaol was the place where the souls awaiting judgement were held, in complete isolation.
Now, the concept of Hell did not show up until the 8-9th Century AD, when the catholic church felt the need for scare tactics to fill the coffers, and it worked. To an extent, it is still working today. They took a few liberties in tying John’s revelation to this concept of hell; a giant pit of burning sulfur where everyone writhed in wretched pain for eternity. Does this check out with Jesus’ teachings? not so much.
Jesus teaches that there are two ways to approach the afterlife. You can follow him, learning to sacrifice and make the world better for those around you, whilst also strengthening your relationship with God, OR you can die.
What do I mean, “you can die”??? Well, you can die, devoid of any meaning or relationship. You will turn to dust, and your soul will be isolated forever. This is hell, and to be honest, it scares me far more than any pit of burning sulfur.
Comment by Hogey — 4 November, 2006 #
@rob
While i agree with what you’re saying about our reliance on God, I’m not sure if thats the spirit’s “want” of us. I think thats what pastors will tell us, that we’re completely reliant on God, and in many ways we are, but I don’t think its the type of thing people can hear and actually UNDERSTAND. I think the message of Christ, first and foremost, is to mirror his example. This includes trusting God, much like he had to, even in his times of terrible doubt (garden of gethsemane).
Here’s the big kicker tho, and I would say this to all who are reading this board: How is Christianity not completely intuitive? Treat people well, and you will be treated well in return. I would bet anybody a million dollars that if you lived your life according to Jesus’ teachings, you will notice a change not only in yourself, but in the way other people treat you. This is the crux of the entire thing. Human nature (usually) shows a great affinity for those who help and love, rather than hate and hurt. Some people got it backwards, but thats why there’s evil in this world. I just wish sometimes that people would open their eyes and realize that TRUE Christians are not hurting anybody, and should be respected for the way they treat others and live their lives.
Its too bad that nearly everyone feels that if you don’t believe what they believe, then you deserved to be belittled, persecuted, and spat upon. I know I love and respect anyone regardless of what they believe… unless you talk sh*t about my mom.
Comment by Hogey — 4 November, 2006 #
Quick change:
1) kinda went off track, and only the first third is actually directed at Rob
2) I don’t believe “nearly everyone” feels that way. I hereby re-word my statement with “some people”.
Comment by Hogey — 4 November, 2006 #
It’s true that alot of us are NOT reliant on God, as you said, that’s what Pastors want us to think. But, in my interpretation of the scriptures I listed, I beleive that’s what God wants from us…
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
*****90. Do you feel that the last words of Christ were significant? If so, why do the four gospels attribute three different sentences to Christ as his last? (Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34: “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?”; Luke 23:46: “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit”; John 19:30: “It is finished”).*****
If every single Gospel said the EXACT same words and the exact same details, wouldn’t you think it was fishy? The fact that there are discrepencies proves their autheticity. It is a common known fact that people hear different things from one source, its how humans are. In any scholars opinion, that is an sign that the Gospels are authentic.
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
119. Why is Solomon commonly considered to be the paragon of wisdom by many Christians, when he constantly sinned against your god (1 Kings 11:4-10, etc.)? Personally, if I had a god talking to me, I’d do what he said.
Why would you do anything a God would tell since you don’t believe in a God?
Comment by Lyon — 4 November, 2006 #
Where is Heaven?
Right where he put it!
Comment by Lyon — 4 November, 2006 #
Lyon-
Why do we go out and disobey our parents when we were kids? WHy do we steal things, why do we lie, why do we cheat? No matter what, humans are stupid. I am, you are, the pope is, the president is, every single human being (besides Jesus) is stupid. It’s our human nature. I love God, and I wanna do what is right in my life for that reason, but I still think bad thoughts about people, I still get angry, I still let a swear word out every once a while, I used to be into sex, drugs, crime, all sorts of things…Just because God is talking to me and I believe in Him doesn’t automatically make me “stupid-proof”…Solomon, like David (who was known as A Man After God’s Own Heart, even though he had sex with a married woman) and you and me, is human…and made mistakes…that’s just the way the world works….i know what your saying though, if God was speaking audibly in his ear then how could he not pay attention?? Well i doubt God was…
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
that was in co-op to lyons…not directed at him
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
****108. Mary and Jehovah were never joined in wedlock. Does it bother you that Jesus is technically a bastard?****
Jesus had a pappa, it was God. Note “God the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.”
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
@rob
I don’t disagree with you. I guess my point is that really understanding how or why one would or could relinquish all control to God would be extremely hard without experiencing a prior relationship or connection to him. I think its barriers like this that really cause people to be turned off by religion. Rather than simply showing others love and allowing them to culture an interest in the lifestyle, many Christians start spouting theological credos and ideas at people, when they aren’t ready for it.
An example: Say I know absolutely nothing about computers. I’ve seen them around, but i’ve never used one or had one myself. Now, lets say a Computer programmer acquaintance of mine (The Christian in this example) starts to talk to me about Visual Basic programming. Now, to most programmers, Visual Basic is the 3rd grade math of computer programming. But to a person who has never had any experience with computers, I would probably 1) tune completely out from what my friend is telling me, and 2) probably be adverse to talking about Visual Basic ever again, due to my complete lack of knowledge on it.
The thing about Theology and Christianity is that its COMPLEX. Again, most theology departments in major universities do not accept entries until they hit the graduate level. That being said, I’m not saying your wrong Rob, cause you’re not, but I think its less relative to people than many realize.
(wow, i don’t even know why i’m arguing about this…. damn message boards. i should go back to work
)
Comment by Hogey — 4 November, 2006 #
****3. If a Catholic, justify the Inquisition and other persecutions of “heretics” throughout the centuries, concentrating on why the Pelagianists, the Priscillianists, and the Manichaeans were persecuted; if a Protestant, justify the witch trials and the way that Protestants constantly hunted down native Americans until there were so few that the government could simply take their land; if a member of an Eastern Orthodox church, justify the persecutions of the Old Believers after the reforms of the seventeenth century.****
Why would I want to justify something I don’t beleive in? Just because I’m Protestant, or Catholic, doesn’t mean I agree with what people did who were of the same denomination before me. Are you white? Then justify slaverly! Are you male? Then justify female oppression! Are you german? Then justify Hitler!
See, doesn’t make sense if you really put some thought into it, does it?
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
Hogey -
Absolutely right. To alot of poeple, giving “control” to God is one of those religious jargon terms that means nothing. I think that we need to be sensetive, as you say, to those…I wasn’t sure what you meant, but now I do. I think ultimate surrender is our goal, but your right…it takes learning and understanding to get there…which can take a while
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
@rob’s response to question #3:
word. well said.
Comment by Hogey — 4 November, 2006 #
website regarding the Gospels and its historical accuracy:
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/arch-nt.html
After taking multiple theological courses at a secular university (meaning it wasn’t a bible college or anything, where one opinion may be favored), this was stressed for an entire semester. The Historical accuracy in terms of the Gospels is more precise than the evidence that Julius Caesar invaded Gaul during his time on the Roman throne, and not one historian refutes that. Apparently it has gotten to the point in the academic History community where if one was to refute the existence of Jesus Christ and the major details of his life, such a scholar would be laughed out of the room ***
*** according to a very respected Historian that taught me at the University of British Columbia
Comment by Hogey — 4 November, 2006 #
Rob, you’ve posted like 50 comments on here. Why? Do you think anyone on the internet gives a shit what you have to say? It’s getting you nowhere because people who believe you are going to comment back and say “word. well said.” and people who disagree are going to say “there is no God”
So why bother? Let’s just all go outside, or in some people’s case… actually do some work at work.
Comment by CB — 4 November, 2006 #
^^ sorry, above is in reference to Holy? Book and his arguments on the authenticity of the gospels
Comment by Hogey — 4 November, 2006 #
@CB:
Why do you read discussion boards when you don’t want to discuss anything?
Comment by Hogey — 4 November, 2006 #
Anybody who believes in a god is a complete moron, full stop.
Comment by The King
Having an intelligent conversation here, so it is limited to intelligent people.
Comment by Lyon — 4 November, 2006 #
The vast majority of your objections to Christianity are based on the teachings of false Christianity. I am a Jehovah’s Witness and can explain every one of those objections, because what I believe is entirely based on the Bible, not man-made traditions.
Comment by Steve West — 4 November, 2006 #
As a Pagan, I always get a giggle about all these arguments about Christianity. I personally don’t FOLLOW Jesus Christ or God, i believe they exist, just as i believe that Pan, Dionysis, Athena, Hecate, Isis, Osiris and the whole slew of other gods and goddesses from various pantheons. I have read the Bible, I went to a Catholic school, and I couldnt stand the patriarchal views and conformity and hypocrisy of the church, therefore i searched out an alternate path. I believe that divinity can be a powerful thing, its always nice to have something to believe in even when you dont exactly believe in yourself. But Christianity just doesnt do it for me, and i am sick and tired of people trying to get me to accept jesus as my saviour. When i say no thank you i have my own religion and i dont try to get you to believe what i believe, people usually reply that they are going to pray for my soul, and i usually politely reply, why thank you, i will be sure to light a candle on the full moon and ask that the goddess guide you through your confused times. People generally leave me alone after that when it comes to religion.
Comment by guesswho — 4 November, 2006 #
Steve West “I am a Jehovah’s Witness and can explain every one of those objections, because what I believe is entirely based on the Bible” The last time i had a Jehovah’s Witness came to my door, they tried to tell me that astrology is bad. I asked them why it is bad to use the stars, planets, moon and sun to our advantage if the Jehovah God created them. We use trees, water, and animals and plants that were put on this earth to our own advantage. The JW’s looked at each other and said they did not have an answer at the momnt and that they would get back to me when they did have an answer. well two months later, they come back to my door and tell m that the only reason it is bad to use astrology, is because it is the Devil tempting us to use it. Now that sounds like a crock of dog doo to me. I also cant understand that if your religion is so great, why do you have to come knocking on my door on a saturday morning while I am watching cartoons and recovering from a moonlit ritual the night before? that seems a little rude, and if it were such a wonderful religion you wouldnt have to make door to door sales pitches.
Comment by guesswho — 4 November, 2006 #
It’s a very good research and makes a lot of sense.
This note is only for the author of these questions. Every question needs a whole discussion to debate and answer. But amazingly you can get all your logical answers in the Quran (The Muslim’s Holy Book) and please before you start making ignorant comments I suggest that you read it first since obviously you can think. It’s enough for you to know that there is only one identical book all over the world since 1400 years ago. This is not my argument but if you really want to know the answers read chapter 3 as a start. It’s interesting that you can find the real stories which make sense about the bible and Jesus in the Quran. Hit me with your hardest questions and I’ll direct you to the verse that answers it.
AS A CHALLENGE FOR YOU. MAKE SOME QUESTIONS LIKE YOU MADE IN HERE ABOUT IT AND LET”S SEE WHAT YOU CAN COME UP WITH.
Comment by Alaaedin — 4 November, 2006 #
“The vast majority of your objections to Christianity are based on the teachings of false Christianity. I am a Jehovah’s Witness and can explain every one of those objections, because what I believe is entirely based on the Bible, not man-made traditions.”
Actually a vast majority of those questions are based on the bible.
“If every single Gospel said the EXACT same words and the exact same details, wouldn’t you think it was fishy?”
Double standards there, ROb. So everytime the gospels say something similar it’s fishy?
You see, that while you try to give me answers to most of these (actually you’re traversing quite a lot of them, seemingly trying to avoid the questions.
You see, as you say yourself the bible is up for interpretation, so instead of calling these questions stupid, perhaps think from a different viewpoint? I could call you just as ignorant for those answers as for the questions…
Really? Who the fuck is your sister?
Oh, thirteen independent psychological organisations tested you for many years, and found that you were retarded…
See, just as valid as your “proof”
Churches brainwashing gay people does not give you a good name by the name…
Comment by junaman — 4 November, 2006 #
LoL this is for all religions not only Christian… I bet Muslim, Hindu are the same… so stfu…
Comment by ayureah — 4 November, 2006 #
****Junaman’s quote – “If every single Gospel said the EXACT same words and the exact same details, wouldn’t you think it was fishy?”
Double standards there, ROb. So everytime the gospels say something similar it’s fishy?
You see, that while you try to give me answers to most of these (actually you’re traversing quite a lot of them, seemingly trying to avoid the questions.
You see, as you say yourself the bible is up for interpretation, so instead of calling these questions stupid, perhaps think from a different viewpoint? I could call you just as ignorant for those answers as for the questions…*****
So your saying as soon as I disagree with one of these questions you have found, I am being ignorant and not looking at things from a “different viewpoint”….what viewpoint would that be? The viewpoint of the enlightenment? Of YOUR viewpoint?
I would appreciate ONE example of a time I danced around an issue and didn’t answer it…please….I’ll wait for it
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
And by the way, what I said about it being fishy if the Gospels were word for word is actually a very valid argument. If they were exact copies of eachother than people would doubt they were written by different people…
Comment by ROb — 4 November, 2006 #
You disable pingbacks, J?
My response to your latest (on Oct 31) is here.
Comment by albert — 4 November, 2006 #
MY CHILDREN I WILL ARISE AGAIN AND KILL ALL THE NON-WHITTES, HOMOSEXUALS, AND DISABLED AND WE SHALL BE PURGED OF THE WICKED. AND THEN WE SHALL HAVE A SEXY PARTY TIME BOMB EXPLOSION…HIGH FIVE
Comment by JESUS — 4 November, 2006 #
you can still step this way there is always time to achieve nirvana
Comment by Buddha — 4 November, 2006 #
7. Explain why, when racism is clearly wrong, Jesus was clearly a racist (see Mark 7:25-29). NOTE: under no circumstances will I believe the idea that racism is morally acceptable.
a: All humans descend from Noah and the other inhabitants of the Ark (the rest were drowned, remember?) therefore there is only one race so there can be no racism
Comment by thereisnodogbut — 4 November, 2006 #
ps
the people who don’t resemble noah’s family are obviously descendant from one of the pairs of animals on the ark and therefore are inferior
Comment by thereisnodogbut — 4 November, 2006 #
It is apparent that you (junaman) don’t spend much time in the Bible. It would be like me walking into a hospital and going to the OR and trying to tell a brain surgeon what I think he should do. When in truth, I have little to no knowledge or experience. I think I am an expert though because I’ve read a few pages of a very in depth book. Anyone who thinks he has it all figured out is a fool in my opinion. Because the wise people all say that the more they learn, the more they see that they have yet to learn.
Questions are good….but making missinformed and weak statements are not. Stick to talking about areas where you actually have some experience, because I could have come up with a better bullcrap argument than you did. If I were you I’d stick with the basic knowledge of the existence of good and evil and decide which came first. Because in the begining it was good, then came sin(disobeying God)and after that came death and curses.
Psalm 53
1 The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, and their ways are vile;
there is no one who does good.
2 God looks down from heaven
on the sons of men
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
3 Everyone has turned away,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
4 Will the evildoers never learn—
those who devour my people as men eat bread
and who do not call on God?
5 There they were, overwhelmed with dread,
where there was nothing to dread.
God scattered the bones of those who attacked you; you put them to shame, for God despised them.
6 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When God restores the fortunes of his people, let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!
Comment by Justoneman — 5 November, 2006 #
The majority of the intelligible questions here are answered at carm.com
Comment by gun_will_travel — 5 November, 2006 #
The majority of the intelligible questions here are answered at carm.org
Comment by gun_will_travel — 5 November, 2006 #
Sorry for the domain goof!
Comment by gun_will_travel — 5 November, 2006 #
To ROb: Typical christian, pass judgement without hearing the evidence. If ignorance is bliss you are as blissful as they come. How many other things have you NOT heard of that are true/exist etc.. the answer: infinity. Get over yourself. And by the way, you’ve heard of him now. The majority of REAL theologians HAVE heard of this author and his books yet none of them have written a refutation disproving a single word of his brilliant works. It’s easier to ignore it. You usually dont find what you’re not looking for. Egoism is the christians mainstay. Nothing like dismissing a witness before he gives testimony because you fear what he has to say. Yeah that would fly in our leagal system. What a safe cozy place to be. Cult victims plug their ears, cover their eyes, and go lalalalalalala while click their heels together trying to stay in Kansas, you’re in your happy place dammit and you want to stay there, cool by me. Not because I dont care because I do. I love all lovable people of EVERY kind, thats my nature. Fortunately your diatribe falls on deaf ears as most people posting here seem intelligent enough to disregard your reply as a mere school yard rant without two brain cells acting in unison. Baaaaa Baaaaaaa, where’s your shepard with his crook, probably smoking a crack pipe with his willy in a little boy.
To every one else, the best way to bring religion crashing down is to demand from our government that they remove their tax exempt status and they would be gone inside a couple years. There are organizations (Freedom from religion foundation is one) working on this now and the IRS wants desperately to do this very thing. We all pay more in taxes so they can be free of societal responibility. Trillions of dollars in dead head property are owned by cult centers, paying $0 in taxes making us pick up the difference. No wonder so many scum bags have become cult leaders with so much to gain ie. Ted Haggard. One more “icon” fallen, I love it. Oh yeah, he didn’t inhale and threw it away, LOL. Remove the host and the parasite dies. Additionally, all stripes of priest craft should be made to prove their assertions or be prepared to stand trial for fraud, financial as well as moral, they are no different than Miss Cleo, charlatans all. I’ve made it easy for anyone (3 brain cell minimum) to actually read it before passing judgement, if you dare, by providing a link just in case you’re interested, if not prepare to be sheared, regularly. http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/is_it_gods_word/
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/forgery_in_christianity/
http://ffrf.org/
PS. Q. Why can’t christians show us a SINGLE historial artifact that proves jesus actually existed.
A. Because he didn’t. The new testament is NOT proof. It actually does more to disprove his existence. With 300,000 variant readings of the bible, which ONE is correct?
My door is open to a god and am awaiting my damascuc road conversion.
PSS. To Hogey: Many many respected historians do not accept jesus as a historical person as there are no writings in contemporary literature referring to him, which would seem impossible had he had such an impact, that isn’t a blatant forgery or interpolation ie. josephus,seneca, pliny etc.. All “pagan” references to jesus in these works have been shown to be BS added into existing works(interpolations) trying desperately to show he existed, it doesn’t work. Even the early church fathers recognized this and complained of there works being rewritten. Do your homework, I can’t do it for you. As one example, there are over 5000 copies of the book of Acts, no 2 are alike, therefore it presumes 4999 of them are innacurate. Innacurate in one, innacurate in all is my only conclusion. You can similar things about every book of the bible. If a “god” can’t keep his teachings unmolested, and we all know it has been corrupted for nearly 2 millenia, using the “god” given ability of reason being all I have, he could not blame me for disbeleiving any of it as I have no way of knowing what is and what isn’t.
Let me ask a simple question and see if any one can answer it.
My advent was miraculously foretold by prophets, I am the second of the holy trinity, I am the son of god, the earth rejoiced at my birth, I was of royal descent, I was born of a virgin on Dec. 25th, impregnated by the holy ghost, my father was a carpenter, I taught in the temple at 12, 3 wise men guided by a star and shepards attended my birth giving me gold, frankencence and myrrh, I had 12 disciples, I had a last supper with my disciples, betrayed by a disciple, was crucified between 2 thieves, pierced in the side, earthly darkness attended my death, died and arose on the third day, ascended to heaven in front of a multitude, was known as the good shepard and the redeemer, an angel warned my parents that the current ruler sought my death so my parents fled to a safe country, I had a forerunner anouncing my coming, I am the resurrection and the light of the world and lord of lords, I came to redeem man from his sins, I cured lepers and the blind, I cast out demons and raised the dead, I spent 40 days in the wilderness tempted by the devil, I came not to destroy the old religion but to fulfill it, I will have a day of judgement and a resurrection/rapture of the faithful.
I could continue ad nauseam with 300+ more like characteristics of this christ but will spare us all. Anyway, if you answered jesus, your wrong. My name is Christna and I was “born” 1500 years BCE. All this info is available in Kersey Graves book “The worlds 16 crucified saviors”. He was one the most eminent orientalists of his time and spent many years in India compiling a history of Christna and Mithra. Not as an anti-christian but as a scholar doing what he loved and commiting to writing what he found. Jesus is a johnny come lately as far as saviors go. 15 people (crucified saviors) rolled into one makes nobody. The Mithra myth is another crucified savior contemporary with jesus with the same storyline and again, began centuries before the jesus myth. Christianity is an amalgamation of judeism and pagan mystery religions to unite the people. Hence the Chatholic (which means universal) Church. It is the worlds first attempt at one world religion, wow that’s scary.
Comment by DJ — 5 November, 2006 #
Religion is man made. Took man a LONG time to get it, and most still don’t. God has been there from teh beginning. All rules were set in place long before jesus. Jesus was the delayed sign to make us aware of what is coming. All God wants is for you to be a good soul, humans write dumbass books that contradict this, and dumbass people follow other passionate people’s writings about things they can only guess about, in short you’re a moron if u worship the books and not God himself. Just be a good soul, and nothing else matters.
Comment by TaPE — 5 November, 2006 #
most of these questions are based on generalizing all of christians into one group and then holding them accountable to everything any christian has done in all of history. this is very naive.
im going to go out on a limb here and say that many of you do not support our president and do not support being in iraq, yet by your reasoning any american should be held directly responsible for justifying the war and explaining what is going on.
furthermore most of these questions are directly addressed in the bible. others are answered by examining the bible as a whole. I am working on answering these questions. I have the first 10 completed and am proceeding with the rest. please give me some time, these are not questions one should hasten through. i will post the response in a separate article.
Comment by Matt05 — 5 November, 2006 #
heres question 1 through 6. i’m tired now.
As to your thought-provoking question about unique beliefs, I am forced to sit and ponder upon the best way to construct a straightforward and believable response that could actually act as a means to draw you closer to my beliefs, but I feel very strongly due to complex universe we live in that there must be more to everything than what we see. I stumbled upon a post at http://saif_w.tripod.com/curious/Misc/created_or_chance.htm that I found interesting and felt like I could tie it in to my point. It’s a little lengthy, but to anyone with burning curiosities, one doesn’t really find a little time spent reading to be too very bothersome. I can’t say who wrote it because I didn’t really search too long for the author, but the website it is taken from was a Muslim-based site. Bare with me (or is it bear…homonyms will be the end of me…):
“Here we refer to the well known law of conservation of matter. This law states that ‘Matter cannot be created nor destroyed’.
What that means is that all that we are able to do is convert one form of substance to another. We can never create matter from nothing, and similarly we cannot turn matter into nothing. Trees are brought down to make wood and paper, sand is used in the making of glass………etc., but we can never create wood or glass out of vacuum.
Similarly we cannot completely destroy wood or glass, for even if we burn wood, we are only converting it to ashes and gases that are given off in the process.
We have also shown that all matter had a definite beginning or a moment in time when it came to exist, the moment when the universe was created. By joining these seemingly contradicting statements together:
1- Since the universe had a definite beginning, we can say that it was created.
2- Laws of physics states that matter cannot be created!
Therefore, it is only rational to say that the universe was created by a power that is above and independent of the laws of physics as we know them. That power is clearly not restricted or confined to the basic laws of physics but far superior.
Neither can this power be of a physical essence. It is also justifiable to expect this power not to have had a beginning because the concept of a beginning, and for that matter time in general, has been shown to be a dimension of the physical universe only. In his ‘Theory of relativity’, Einstein stated that time, space and matter were all created when the universe was born, and that before that moment time did not exist. It is not easy for the human mind to envisage the concept of no time, but if one accepts that time is only a dimension of the physical world the idea becomes more acceptable. Further still, and since the universe had a definite beginning before which nothing existed, then such an awesome event (the creation of the universe) cannot be attributed to chance, since before that initial moment of creation nothing existed, not even chance!
A superior non-physical power and creator is the only possible explanation to this argument.
a- The laws of probabilities
The laws of probability offer another interesting argument:
If we throw the dice, the chance of obtaining double 6 is (1 in 36). What this means is that on average if we throw the dice 1000 times, the chances are that we should get double 6 around 27 times. Now if we throw the dice 1000 times and we obtain double 6 every single throw then there is a design, a system or a controlling force behind the throws. We can hardly call it chance.
The science of Genetics offers vivid evidence that chance could not be a factor in the process of creation due to the very precise combinations necessary in the building of cells. These requisite combinations defy all laws of probabilities.
On a larger scale, We only need to look at the universe to be able to marvel at the endless examples of precision and beautiful design. Every field of scientific knowledge seems to testify to the existence of a master creator. It does not seem difficult to dismiss the possibility of chance.
b- The Mechanical argument
The mechanical argument is also in support of the concept of a creator.
‘For every action there is a reaction, equal to it and opposite in direction.’
Everything that has moved was moved by something else. If we go back in time, tracing everything to its original mover, we would ultimately arrive at that which was not moved by anything else. That analysis will also lead us to the unavoidable conclusion of an initial Creator.
c- The Development vs. Destruction argument
Everything left unattended gradually disintegrates. If one builds a house and leaves it unattended, in a few weeks it will become full of dust. In thirty years or so the paint will start falling off. After two hundred years or so some of the walls will start to weaken and fall, and maybe in a thousand years or so the whole house will be flat to the ground. In other words, and if left unattended, any organised structure or system will eventually become one of chaos.
Never will chaos suddenly spring into a system. A house will never spring into being of its own doing.
If we try to analyse what has actually happened on earth we realise that it was quite remarkable. When the earth was first formed it was a very hostile hot planet with no form of life whatsoever. Gradually simple forms of life evolved leading all the time to more complex forms of living creatures and culminating in the appearance of mankind. The trend has been reversed, instead of things crumbling they have in fact developed all the time to higher forms of being. Chaos has developed into a system. Has the earth been attended all the time?
It is amusing, to put it mildly, to observe man so full of vanity thinking he is the master of everything merely because he is given some intelligence to discover some of the laws of the universe. In reality, man has no authority in setting or altering such laws. With the aid of the physical senses, man is given a view over a divine masterpiece, but considering the human being is a mere spectator within the huge universe, he can indeed be very pompous!
There is so much symmetry in the universe to be able to go through all of it, but one particular design has special appeal,. And that is the Macro/Micro pattern.
d- The Macro/Micro patterns
If we look at the universe at large we find that it is composed of vast areas of empty space and also other areas containing shapeless matter in the form of hot gases, dark matter and formed stars. These stars group together to form galaxies. Our galaxy, ‘The Milky Way’ has within it no less than 100 billion individual stars. Our star, the sun, has nine planets in orbit around it. Most of these planets have a number of moons again in orbit. The basic force that governs the movement of all these bodies is gravity. The moons rotate around their planets, which all rotate around the mother star, which in our case is the sun. Similarly, all these stars revolve round the centre of gravity of the galaxy.
Galaxies group together to form clusters of galaxies and once again individual galaxies revolve round the centre of gravity of the cluster. Clusters group together to form super-clusters, and these obey the same laws. These are the largest units in the universe as we know it today.
However, and if we proceed in the opposite direction, we notice that the similarity is truly remarkable. If we look at the other end of the scale and examine the atom which is the smallest form of substance able to exist in a chemical reaction, we find that it is composed of electrons revolving round a nucleus, in the same way as stars revolve round the centre of gravity of their galaxies. Are we but seeing the finger prints of the creator?” —————————————————————————–
The last part I chose not to include because it didn’t tie in with my point, and personally, I don’t think that an astronaut’s questioning God would cause him to have died in a helicopter accident. I don’t believe an omnipotent and all-powerful creator of everything we know would need to prove a point to one man out of a many that choose to question or mock Him daily. But, I can honestly say myself that I have thought at times in my life how it would make things easier to a human being to know that there wasn’t a God, but I find as I grow older, there is too much beauty in life not only in the physical characteristics of the galaxy and this world we live in, as well as in the relationships we are capable to have with one another if we really choose to make an honest effort. So much for question 0. The others will be shorter I promise.
1 & 2. This again is not something I can say out pure knowledge and understanding, because no person can prove without a doubt that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, although I have seen many attempts to try (sometimes quite silly). I again claim to NOT be an expert or the sort on any of the Holy Texts. I have read only a small portion of the Quran (Moslem holy book), but I find that it resembles the Old Testament in message. The Quran actually speaks of Jesus Christ and they recognize him as a Prophet of God, but nothing more. What we do know is that the New Testament was put together under Emperor Constantine and the council of Nicea in the 300’s CE at some point (again, not an expert). This is not to say that in was constructed there, for the works existed before that time. According to historical fact, Jesus Christ died in 33 CE, so they probably were beginning to have been written soon after that point. Many assume that much more about the life of Jesus was in writing and they failed to put it in, and that is very believable. Many times, religious leaders became drunk with power, and it is very possible that they could have left out something if it could benifeit them monetarily. That’s not to say that’s the case, for it’s impossible for me to know for sure. But the fact of the matter is that Jesus Christ was defiantly a part of history whether you believe it or not. That being said, I cannot show you evidence that his mother conceived him being a virgin, but with an opened mind, I can see how a Being capable of creating man and woman could also create a child without the use of the man. As for his reasons for creating a Son, I can merely speculate. This has to be observed with an open mind, because it is extremely difficult to get beyond our own realm of thought. All of our knowledge is based on factual evidence, recorded events, experiences, etc. We have gained knowledge by experimentation and have also put down logical hypotheses through the same method. (Think back to Geo-centric theory). All I’m saying is that when we think we have it figured out, a new theory comes along, so I choose to be content with the fact that I personally know nothing. With that, I believe that we as a race will come to know so much more, given time and chance. So back to the actual question…with an opened mind, we can at least assume that there is perhaps a little more out there than we can see. Just as we could have been created, whether from soil or from evolution, (we are what we are nevertheless) other beings could have been created, like us, with free will. If the stories of angels are true, then free will could have led some of them to believe in God for what he was, or they could choose to doubt. According to the new testament (sorry I forget exactly where so I will not go in depth) some angels were cast out from Gods grace, as it is put, and among these were Satan, Lucifer, Beelzebub. I’m not sure if these are all synonymous with one of his angels or maybe a few, but regardless, all of the names are associated with evil and lack of anything good according to many texts. If God cast them out, they with free will, could choose to disobey further and maybe even make certain vices seem appealing to us as humans. These vices are referred to as sin in the bible. If Satan, who was a powerful angel, decided to rebel even further knowing that he could deceive another of God’s creations (us), he could do it, and we may not even know it. The truth is, though that we all sin and even the most pious Christian/Jew/Muslim/Athiest many times seems so cocky and fixed in their beliefs that it only turns people off to their views. We all have a comfort zone, and when we begin to be nudged out, we panic. Hence the reactions when someone says it must be seen THIS WAY. If Satan were capable of dragging us down with him, so to speak, he would. The question as to Jesus and where He fits in, He can be seen as a Savior, losing his life to the very people who He was here for. He can be seen as a prophet, doing wonderful things and inspiring people, or He can be seen as nothing…a lie…a fabrication in order for people to make a profit or control the masses. Regardless of the many ways he can be seen, it is what he stands for that is important if we are still in the opened-minded perspective necessary to swallow the unfathomable. Jesus was a man of blood and chromosomes, just like any one of us. He saw things in a different light, as many have before, but I cannot say that he was or was not divinely inspired, but he definitely was pointing constantly in the direction of a larger being, as many have before. Just as many chose to believe or not believe in God before Jesus, the choices are being made now based on hearsay, personal experiences, etc. I don’t see why everyone before Jesus would have gone to hell, because there were many that believed in God, Allah, etc.
3 4 & 5 . Persecutions, killings, burning witches in the name of God, Inquisitions, Crusades, Wars, Iraq invasion…all of these are just a few of the things that have been going on during the longevity of time as we know it, and it is the product of free will, and becoming drunk with power. I cannot say that I’ve never fried some ants with a magnifying glass, but hopefully I wouldn’t equate that into human lives being that meaningless. But with the right culture and upbringing, I could be a grave robber/necrophile/pedophile/mass murderer/cruel dictator/president?/as anyone. With an endless supply of wealth, power, and the yearning for more land,riches,women,etc, I could do horrible things and even in the name of religion. Especially if I grew up seeing how people reacted to religion, as it is a touchy subject. People want to believe in something and they want to believe in their leaders. If I were a man who grew up in the aristocracy and had racisms/stereotypes/hatreds institutionally programmed into me, then I promise I could be just as capable as anybody and be justified to myself in my decisions. I am, however thankful that I am not that bad, (less the occasional grave robbing, tee hee).
6. Some of these may be blamed on translation, and some maybe on the fact that it was written by men. If a man who took his religious practices out of context told someone to kill homosexuals or something of the like, it could make it’s way to the pages of the book that is supposed to be 100% perfect. The overall message is perfect, but the fact that some people relay it with slight biased really gets in the way of understanding. I use homosexuality because I’ve heard it argued and seen it protested with picket signs. According to the holy texts, homosexuality is a sin. Because of this, we have church denominations turning them away because of their pre-programmed sexuality. This is one of the many occurrences that can happen to anyone born into this world. It is not fair to point the finger at someone who is doing wrong in our beliefs when in doing that we are ignoring our own areas that need work. It is necessary though, that we be willing to come to grips with the fact that at any moment, our whole world as we know it can be ripped out from under us. We can lose our whole family in a natural or man-made disaster. We can find our health to be frittering away due to cancer, or some other horrible disease. The scripture about hating not your father, etc. (Luke 14:26) I think can be clarified with this reasoning. Translation can make it seem as though we are supposed to literally despise our close ones, but God’s message according to the bible is that if you love and trust him completely, then you will never taste complete and utter loss, because He is always available.
7. I’m not sure if I understand what you mean about racism here. But what Jesus said to her did draw an answer that freed her child of a demon.
Comment by shlegminitism — 5 November, 2006 #
Rofl, I love how both these lines are right next to eachother
“1- Since the universe had a definite beginning, we can say that it was created.
2- Laws of physics states that matter cannot be created!”
Thanks for the laugh.
Comment by Bing — 5 November, 2006 #
“if empiricism is knowledge gained through experience, then how would testimony of others be empirical? We did not experience god, or experience creationism…
Where as with evolution, we have witnessed how species have changed and evolved, and hence come up with this theory, which sounds more like empiricism to me.”
In regards to your comment above, when and where have we ever seen a new species come from a previous one. There is no evidence of anything other than micro-evoloution. When it comes down to it, Darwin’s famous finch observations saw nothing more than variations within the same species. A finch with a longer beak is still a finch. They were still able to mate and produce … guess what … more finches, not reptiles. There are nothing but gaps in all of the fossill records. There exists no transitional species fossils anywhere. Also, the so-called geologic column only exists in one place .. inside the pages of the texts that would have us believe it exists in the real world. How do you explain human-made iron bells fused into rock that is, by evolutionists estimates, to be millions of years old. Evolution is not supported by science. The converse is true. Creation is supported by what we observe around us, in more than just scientific ways. The idea of evolution itself has created such madmen as Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, several of the kids who have gunned down their classmates in the last few years, and others are waiting in the wings to take power and purge the planet of people who have faith in their creator. Anyone who has this ridiculous faith in evolution is dangerous.
Comment by Ronzo — 5 November, 2006 #
7. Explain why, when racism is clearly wrong, Jesus was clearly a racist (see Mark 7:25-29). NOTE: under no circumstances will I believe the idea that racism is morally acceptable.
a: All humans descend from Noah and the other inhabitants of the Ark (the rest were drowned, remember?) therefore there is only one race so there can be no racism
i can’t believe that I’ve never thought of that myself.
- IF the earth is only 6,000 years old, then how account for mulitlple ethnicities worldwide when we’re all descended from a small group of a dozen or so 5,000 yeara ago!?
this question would of course be only directed to biblical literalists.
Comment by blissamerica — 5 November, 2006 #
7. Explain why, when racism is clearly wrong, Jesus was clearly a racist (see Mark 7:25-29). NOTE: under no circumstances will I believe the idea that racism is morally acceptable.
a: All humans descend from Noah and the other inhabitants of the Ark (the rest were drowned, remember?) therefore there is only one race so there can be no racism
i can’t believe that I’ve never thought of that myself.
- IF the earth is only 6,000 years old, then how account for mulitlple ethnicities worldwide when we’re all descended from a small group of a dozen or so 5,000 yeara ago!?
this question would of course be only directed to biblical literalists. i really am interested in an answer, so please keep the napalm launchers holstered! lol
Comment by blissamerica — 5 November, 2006 #
is there a specific reason why the list begins with “0″ as opposed to one? why is question twelve limited to 100 words, when people have written 500 page analysises on the topic in an attempt to explain it. i obviously did not read all of the questions, i was just curious about those things…
Comment by shiftingtheparadigm — 5 November, 2006 #
0. I am not one to come out and label my beliefs a “sect,” but I suppose one could say I am a Pentecostal. The fundamental teachings are the same as other denominations: Christ is the only way to heaven, all have sinned, God made the universe. The main difference in beliefs is that while a large portion of the church (church meaning all Christians) has dropped the acts of speaking in tongues and divine healings, we still teach and operate in these gifts. I could go on, but for the sake of keeping the answers short and readable, I will move on to other answers. Any questions of yours will be answered by my answers.
1. I appreciate the sarcasm. The reason why Jesus had to die was because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). God requires that one be perfect to be in heaven. Since none are perfect, God gave us all the way in: His Son. Christ’s blood purifies and redeems the sinner in God’s eyes. So if we confess with our mouth and believe in our hearts that God raised Christ, we shall be saved (Rom 10:9).
2. No, everybody who died before Jesus certainly did not go to hell. Before Christ, the Jews were living under the Old Covenant (Hence the Old Testament). Under this, God still required that the Jews be made free of sin to enter Abraham’s Bosom. But since all have sinned, the Jews follow(ed) strict laws, and rituals of sacrifice to maintain their salvation.
3. I fall under the Protestant Category for this one. First of all it was not just Protestants killing Indians. To blame them entirely for the Native American’s downfall is a gross inaccuracy. Second of all, I cannot, in my own eyes, justify the witch trials or the killing of any other person. It will always be wrong to kill another. However, in those days the Church was acting out of fear under the leadership of stern preachers such as Jonathan Edwards who is famous for his “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” sermon. Read it and you will see what I mean. Americans of all societies should know how people respond to other people whom they fear. Just look back at how we responded to communism in the 20th century.
4. Similar to response 3. Persecuting for any reason is wrong and against the Bible. To “Love thy neighbor as thyself” (Matt 22:39) was the second chief principle of Jesus. I can only speculate that the people of the time were acting out of fear and from the orders and teachings of their elders / clergymen. In their eyes they needed to spread the gospel by any means necessary.
5. Similar to the previous two. No specific example is cited, so there is nothing to address or add that hasn’t already been stated.
6. Before addressing the scriptures, let me say that we know God is love because the Bible says God is Love (1John 4:8). I can see that this is sort of like saying “God is good because God said so,” but if one looks at the Bible as a whole, one can see that God truly is a God of love. For god so loved the world that he gave His son… (John 3:16). For the scriptures, the passages from the Old Testament show that God has anger and will carry out His judgment. A lot of the things God did in the Old Testament (such as killing people) are because of that reason: They are from the Old Testament, which is the old covenant that the Hebrews had with God. The Hebrew are God’s people and he protected them, even in battle, out of love. Also these verses are being taken out of context. When applied to the chapters as a whole, one can see that these were His actions in specific situations, not his overall demeanor. Finally, Jesus established the new covenant, which is what all Christians live under. In this covenant God does not pour out his wrath at every offense, this is saved for the final judgment.
7. The Bible does not support racism. This passage is again being taken out of context. The reason Jesus parabled the woman as a dog was because she was a gentile, and at that time Jesus had been sent for the Jews. But because of that woman’s faith, Jesus sent the unclean spirit from her daughter anyway. A gentile at that time was defined as everybody that was not a Hebrew. This could be seen as a form of racism, except Christ also was extended to the gentiles (Rom 1:16).
8. The Bible does not support the oppression of women. The Bible does however define a woman’s place in the family: second to the husband. The Bible also says that the husband is to love his wife as himself. In this, man and wife meet the others needs, yet the woman yields to the man in specific matters. For the referenced scriptures:
1 Cor – There are parts, such as the women needing to be covered, that are meant specifically for the Corinth church. This is why the Corinth church is asked to judge for itself on these matters. The other parts mention that the man was created before the woman, and the woman from the man. This reveals that God made the woman from the man that the woman would serve the man in marriage as his wife; likewise the man would love her as his own flesh. This does not mean that women are inferior to men, only that in marriage, the man is the head of the family.
1 Tim – This epistle was written by Paul to Timothy, who was at Ephesus. The reason Paul wrote the letter was to tell Timothy how to teach specifically at the church in Ephesus. In reading the first chapter we see that Paul “charged” Timothy with this duty because there were women causing problems within the church. This was Paul’s solution.
9. The Bible does not support slavery. God led His people out of slavery in Egypt through Moses after all. If one reads the verse after the one cited, it clearly states that the bondsman is “suffering wrongfully.” A proper interpretation would be telling slaves not to hate their masters, for it is wrong to hate, but instead to do the work required without strife, knowing their reward waits in heaven.
10. Under the new covenant, the Bible does not tell children to obey every command, even if wrong, that their parents give. The scripture in Deuteronomy applies to the Hebrew under the old covenant. Deuteronomy is one of the five books of law after all. However, the scriptures cited talks about parents taking their son to the elders of the town because he is a drunkard and they need help with him. None of the verses have anything to do with following evil orders of parents. Instead, these scriptures merely state that if parents love their children they will punish them when they misbehave so that the children may grow up to be loving people and not vandals. The Bible does say to honor thy father and mother, but you can honor your parents without doing wrong.
11. What do you mean a “better way?” God already gave us the easiest way there is to heaven. You don’t have to do anything special, just confess and believe Christ crucified. It couldn’t be easier. Do you think that people should be allowed into heaven when they refuse to believe the reason behind heaven or its existence? We all are originally destined for hell, all of us. That God gave us a free way out shows his love for his creation. God knew that many would not be able to accept their own imperfections and accept His standard. That is why there are few who enter by the narrow path. That this set of questions has so much support, in itself supports this verse.
12. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life (Rom 6:23). We are all condemned to death for sinning. The reason we go to hell is because we are sinners who have rejected God. Those who believe are partakers of the gift of eternal life. Living a life of wickedness and not repenting condemns a person to hell. But God gave us such a simple way out.
13. The terms “just” and “merciful” do not contradict each other. If anything they go together. Our courts in the U.S. are merciful and just. A man is innocent until proven beyond doubt that he is guilty. Penalties for first time offenders are lesser than penalties for repeat offenders. God is merciful and just in that he showed mercy to man by sending Christ that we may escape damnation, he is just in that he holds man accountable for his actions.
14. Devils and demon possession is a tricky subject because many Christians do not acknowledge their presence. The Old Testament is primarily about the Hebrew people. Being God’s people, devils would have a hard time occupying one of their bodies. For one, the person would be fortified in Him, and two, God would not suffer their presence in one of His people’s bodies. In the New Testament, the people who are possessed are healed by their or their loved one’s faith in Jesus. And devils have certainly not been “explained away” by epilepsy and schizophrenia. One would be mistaken if they thought these were the effects of being demon possessed. They can be however symptoms brought on by a devil. But the reason demon possession is not a frequently publicized occurrence is, well there are several reasons. First, the media could never credibly cover such a story. Two, if people knew that devils were possessing people, it would prove their existence as well as the existence of God, the devil does not want that. Three, people are still possessed by demons today. That is why the church has been charged with casting them out. I assure you that worse things happen to people possessed than epilepsy or schizophrenia. Finally, the devil did not want Christ to succeed in his purpose. So he tried to put as many stumbling blocks as he could in Jesus’ way.
15. Do you know how much of the brain scientists still do not understand? One teaching is that a person’s unconsciousness is actually their soul. First of all, it is the spirit, not the soul, which gets us to heaven. If we are Christians, we have born again spirits. The soul is the middle man between the spirit and the flesh. So what affects the one, affects the other. If the soul resides in the brain, then affecting the brain would affect the soul, but never the spirit.
16. Why would you let your loved ones go to hell if you knew about heaven? Furthermore, when you get to heaven you get a new, perfect body, one which is without sin. The Bible also says that unless a man hates his father and mother and children and wife and his own life, he will not be a disciple (Luke 14:26). What Jesus meant by this was that we should not be attached to the things of this world, including our families, to the extent that it makes them idols before God. So in other words, a person’s eternity will not be ruined if some of his or her loved ones are in hell.
17. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (Rev 21:4). Heaven will be a perfect place. The people in the Bible don’t give much of a description of what heaven will look like. For it is written that eye has not seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man, the things God has prepared for those that love him (1Cor 2:9). In my opinion, I think its better this way. I want to be completely surprised by what my God has made for me.
18. Hell is described as an unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43). It is everlasting punishment (Matt 25:46). Hell is the devil’s domain now, and he torments those who are sent there.
19. Original sin exists because God made Adam and Eve perfect. There was nothing wrong with them, but when Adam sinned, he fell, and sin entered the world. The reason we are punished is not because of Adam’s sin, Adam’s sin only opened the door for us to sin, which is what we are punished for. Children are not born evil, but all are born with the ability to sin. This is why children are taken in the rapture, because until a child reaches a certain age of understanding between right and wrong, the child is alive to God.
20. The physical baptism of water does not keep you from hell. Baptism is merely an act or symbol to show the Church and yourself that you have accepted Christ. This activity is something that has been over stressed. I have never been baptized, yet I assure you I am definitely going to heaven. The only way to go to heaven is to confess and believe Christ rose again after being crucified for your sins. This act is the baptism of Christ, which is with blood, not with water.
21. To label the placement of the tree in the garden as entrapment is ludicrous. By that reasoning, any store that has its merchandise on display would also be guilty of entrapment because it tempts people to steal. The reason the tree was placed in the garden was so that man could choose whether or not to obey God. If God has just made man and not let him choose, then where would be the love in that? God made man for companionship, not unquestioning servitude.
22. My church does not teach sex is evil. On the contrary it teaches that sex is a wonderful gift that God gave man, which it is. The scriptures cited do not say that sex is evil or anything even close to this. They do say that sex is something reserved for marriage and that it is natural for the flesh to desire sex, so sex outside of marriage (fornication) is wrong. Sex within marriage is a wonderful act of love. God gave us the spirit that we may control the flesh. This is why God asks us to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh. The reason the Bible says it is better for a man not to touch a woman is because it is easier for a person to serve the Lord when they do not have cares for this life getting in the way. A married man cares for things of this world, how he may please his wife (1Cor 7:33). An unmarried man is free to devote his life to the Lord.
23. Jesus taught that he could return to rapture the Church at any moment because Jesus can return at any moment. He will come like a thief in the night (1Thess 5:12) and nobody but God knows when that will be. For Jesus to say “you guys are in the clear, I won’t be coming for a few millennia” would’ve been wrong.
24. Miracles were not and still are not limited to just the apostles. Granted the apostles had a lot of miracles due to their strong faith, but any Christian has the potential to perform a miracle. However not all Christians, in fact the majority, ever will. This is because miracles, such as divine healings, come only by faith. Any time that the apostles failed to cast out a devil, Jesus replied “it is because of your unbelief,” And that “this kind cometh out not buy by prayer and fasting” (Matt 17:20-21). Just take a look at recent evangelists like Jack Coe, Smith Wigglesworth, Kenneth Hagin, and today’s Dave Roberson. These men cast out demons and heal the sick through Jesus regularly. Wigglesworth even has documented miracles, which are with legal officials present. Jack Coe went on trial for practicing medicine without a license due to the number of people he healed. There is film of this man holding cancer that has fallen off of a man’s face. For his defense, several evangelists of the time came in and performed healings in the courtroom. The case was dropped.
25. The stories of the resurrection (I assume you mean Jesus’ from the dead) are in the four gospels. Each one includes and omits minor details, but the major details are the same. Show me something that is “inconsistent” and I will address it.
26. I use the King James Version of the Bible as my primary text. This is because it was made in 1611 and has undergone repeated revisions to ensure that it is as accurate to the original Greek and Hebrew texts as possible. It is true that this Bible is a translation of the Bible the Catholics used, but at that time the Catholics had all the texts and were the predominant church, where else would one turn for a copy of the Bible? And why should the denominations matter for the version of the Bible used in your eyes? You have already lumped all of us together for the wrongful persecutions of past generations, now you separate us to further try to persecute us, only to fail?
27. What kind of a question is that? Animals eat meat because meat tastes good and sustains the body. God designed it this way because, well, if all of the creatures were herbivores, think of the overpopulation that would ensue, followed by the extinction of several species after they overgraze the planets vegetation. We eat meat for population control and balance.
28. This question is just as ridiculous as the first. First of all, not all parasites are bad, some are actually helpful (like with the sharks and remora). Parasites may not have always been parasites. In the Garden of Eden I can say for certain that parasites would not have plagued it, because it was paradise. And who is to say that these creatures did not evolve (via micro evolution) into the nasty life forms they are today? Please note I do not support macro evolution.
29. Hell isn’t a threat, it’s a spiritual law. It is the place one must go if they refuse God. This is why God gave us a way out. Punishment, while a deterrence, does not violate free will. If it did, then why are our jails filled with criminals?
30. God has never been the cause of sin, ever. These people were already sinning, so God used them as examples of His power in casting his judgment. The reason God did this is actually cited in the texts referenced. Pharaoh was revolting against God, so he punished him. These examples with the pharaoh are in the Old Testament, but under our new covenant, God will not do this. And yes, pharaoh was accountable for his sin, but the sin was already there. The “hardening of his heart” means that God did not appeal to pharaoh; He let pharaoh continue down his path to destruction.
31. Judas did not have to be damned. If Judas would have repented before killing himself then he would have gone to heaven. But he apparently felt his act was too horrible. God did not want Judas, or anybody, to go to hell. Judas went to hell by his choice.
32. Judas did not have to go to hell. He did not make a great sacrifice for humanity; he betrayed Jesus and refused to repent despite his grief.
33. Of course the apostles lied at some point in their life. Everybody reading this has lied. Paul said that the lies were wrong in the referenced text. The reason why we believe the epistles is because they were written to the church by the people who were serving God the most. If a person is seeking God with their whole heart, as these men were, then they could not write such deception. I would also mention divine inspiration, but apparently that would be seen as “cheating,” despite that it would also be true.
34. God has said that homosexuality is wrong. He, like me, hates the act, but not the person. The Leviticus passage refers to Old Testament law (Leviticus being one of the books of law). This law was that homosexuality was to be punished. The passage from Romans merely states that the people gave themselves over to perverse lifestyles and God did not approve. So while God is against the act, He is not against the person. And to answer why God “made” homosexuals first requires one to believe that homosexuality is a biological predetermination, and not a lifestyle choice. Personally I believe it is a choice, therefore God did not create the homosexual, the homosexual created himself. If one believes it is not a choice but genetics, then this can be explained by a mutation or alteration of the gene after God created man, a form of “evolution” if you will.
35. A prayer is directed to God, spell casting is not. God said “you shall have no other idols before me.” To pray to another being would break one of the Ten Commandments. And the intercession would not necessarily break the laws of physics.
36. First of all, do you know how difficult it would have been to try to find that much parchment and ink to write all this down at the time it happened and then try to carry all of the text around as you traveled from city to city? Secondly, the people may not have thought to write them down in a manner that would be preserved until some time after the event had happened. If something this huge had happened a few years ago, and there was no immediate need to write it down for future generations since you could give a first or second hand account, would you? Just because scholars didn’t find more text about Jesus, doesn’t mean it wasn’t written; only that it was not preserved. Since to the Romans he was merely a “pain in the butt,” why would they chronicle the life of some random man? Christianity did not start to make its way into Rome until around the 3rd century.
37. Because there is a large amount of text (the Bible) and other documents that show a man named Jesus was born and lived in that time. Islam and Judaism both say there was a man named Jesus who lived at this time. Finally you admit yourself that there are Roman records of his existence (See #36).
38. Christ is the modern day usage of Christos, which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word Messias, or Messiah. Christ is used to mean messiah or high priest. Jesus is both the messiah and high priest of Christianity. Please show me a source giving it a pagan origin, since it clearly is not.
39. I’ve already explained that Jesus was not opposed to gentiles or sex (See 7 and 22). I am unsure as to what you mean by the pagan sexual rite after his death. If you mean the woman who poured oil and his feet and washed them with her hair, this was done before His death and as a symbol to prepare him for death. As far as any oils anointed on him after death, it was common to put sweet smelling oils on bodies at this time to mask the stench of decaying flesh in the tombs. Since I already showed you that the only way Christ has pagan roots is if you mean that the Romans were pagans before Christians, my definition form 38 does not apply.
40. Matt 10:34 is when Jesus is saying that though He came for our salvation, His act will set father against son and family against family, which it has. Jesus is called the Prince of Peace because in Isaiah 9:6 it is one of the names given to the coming messiah. And indeed Jesus will restore peace to the world after the devil has been thrown into the lake of fire.
41. Jesus comes from the name Iesous (Yay-soos), which is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name Yeshua “He Shall Save”, which is the short form of Yehoshua, “Yahweh Is Salvation.” This information is from Strong’s Greek Dictionary (see Strong #2424).
42. It wasn’t. Please show me a single credible text stating that Jesus’ life was the same as any of these men’s (meaning the story of their lives from an ancient text, not another geocities website saying Jesus was a pagan). There may have been ideological similarities between the two, but little more. That their lives are identical is a myth.
43. You are correct in that it is our free will to worship and obey God. But just because it is a free will to serve God doesn’t mean to neglect policies in a democratic nation. First of all, most politicians are WASPS (white Anglo-Saxon Protestants). As a Christian it makes sense that their Christian views would be represented, being that they are the chief legislators of the nation. Many Christians also believe that this nation was founded on Christianity so it only makes sense that Christianity be looked after in public policy.
44. The Bible does not say you have to convert anybody to go to heaven. The Bible only says that we should go unto all people and preach the gospel that all may be saved (Mark 16:15). While I disagree with literally forcing Christianity on a person, I do agree that one should never stop trying to reach another person to lead them to Jesus.
45. Spreading the Gospel does not require spreading lies about anything. It only requires spreading the truth of God. The reason Christians in the past may have said Wicca’s served our Christian devil is because to us there is only one devil that can be served.
46. That Jesus always referred to Himself as the son of man is a great point. He was the son of man. But he was also the Son of God. The devil calls him the son of God in Matt 4:3. His apostles knew he was the Son of God, the Messiah (Matt 14:33). But if Jesus went around telling everybody he was the Son of God, then He would have been killed long before His time. Jesus had to deal with many devils trying to reveal him as the Christ before his time in his life, such as Matt 8.
47. While the ideas of the golden rule and turn the other cheek may be Buddhist now, and while Buddhism began before Christianity, that does not mean the Buddhists had these sayings first. It is possible and likely that they were adapted to the philosophy after Jesus spoke them (unless you can show me an ancient text that predates Jesus’ saying of these). The reason the Beatitudes were common the Jewish devotional literature at the time is because Jesus was a Jew and that literature was Christian literature based on Jesus’ teachings. Some of the Jews followed Jesus. Jesus was not a thinker or philosopher, He already had all the answers; He went around and taught them.
48. You answered your own question within the question. If the nation is 85% Christian, and democracy is based on the majority being represented the best, doesn’t make sense that Christianity is represented? While we don’t have to fight for our rights in this nation, there are Christians in other nations, such as China, where they are not as fortunate as we are. Their churches are underground though.
49. Christian holidays being on the same day as pagan holidays likely stems from Rome. The Romans were initially pagan, so the change to Christianity would have been easier if certain traditions were maintained. Besides, it is not important when the event is celebrated, but that the event is remembered. The pagan’s were converted to Christianity by appealing to them, the holiday dates were likely kept out of tradition.
50. This is the same question as question 13, just with a scripture added. So please see response 13. As for the text cited, I assume you mean God’s description as being a jealous God. The Greek word used can also mean angry or zealous. That God would “visit the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me” does show an angry God. But take this in context; this is from the Old Testament, where God still poured out his judgment as he saw fit, when he saw fit.
51. The Old Testament is to be used an as an example and to learn from. While Christians how a better, perfect covenant with Jesus, the Hebrew people living under the old covenant is there to be used as a guide. Certain aspects of the Old Testaments theology, such as the Ten Commandments, moved on to the New Testament. Other laws did not. The New Testament is the Christian standard for living.
52. First of all, Elisha was a pretty much a bad bottom prophet. Second of all, Elisha cursed the children. Since Elisha was such a powerful prophet God sent two bears after them. This is another example of God sending His judgment forth under the Old Testament. God did now show mercy to the children because they were not Jews. He was just in that he answered Elisha.
53. There are examples of prostitution because prostitution happened. God most certainly does not support the act since he has already stated sex is for marriage only. The referenced scripture is not dealing with prostitution though. It is dealing with Sodom, a city so corrupt that a sexual act has been named after it. Lot was offering his daughters to a mob to save two men. The two men had come to warn Lot to leave Sodom because God was going to destroy the city. The two men smote the mob in front of Lot’s house and told Lot to gather his family and belongings and leave without looking back the next morning.
54. The wags of sin is death. A sin is a sin in God’s eyes. So murdering a person is the same as telling a lie in terms of sin in God’s eyes. The reason God ultimately sent His Son was because what the Jews had been doing wasn’t working. God needed a better covenant that would allow His people’s sins to be covered once and for all. The only way to do this was through Jesus.
55. Define “bad.” If by bad you mean are they a person that one should not associate with, then the answer is no, not all non Christians are bad. Most of my friends call themselves atheists, but we are good friends. If by “bad” you mean going to hell, then yes. Anybody who has not confessed Christ as their savior is going to hell. “Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me” (John 14:6). Then everyone who shall confess Me before men, I will confess him before My Father who is in Heaven (Matt 10:32).
56. See #55.
57. Well the Bible says to preach to everybody. But the reason why I specifically responded to this is because, while I know that very few, if any will end up reading all these responses, the people of the internet need to know the truth and that this barrage of questions can be answered without lying or compromising any of my beliefs.
58. The Garden of Eden was paradise on Earth. After Adam and Eves’ sin God moved the garden. Abraham’s Bosom is a word many interpret to be heaven. This was a place where the Jews went when they died that was adjacent to hell. People in these two places could see each other (Luke 16:22-24). Heaven, which is where those who died after Jesus’ resurrection can go, is located in, well Heaven. The Bible does not give a physical location in our universe, but the sky is often described as the heavens throughout the Bible.
59. Hell is mentioned as being down, in the depths of the earth (Eph 4:9). Hell is also described as a lake of fire. Liquid fire, or magma, is what one gets when one digs to the middle of the earth.
60. Animal’s don’t go to heaven or hell because animals do no have a spirit. God created man for companionship and the animals were created to serve man on this world. While animals can be described as having souls (since they have intellect and personality) they do not have a spirit, so they cannot go to heaven.
61. Satan is not specifically after their souls, like some sort of monster that needs them for a power source, but he walketh about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour (1Peter 5:8). If you are familiar with Milton’s Paradise Lost, then you know the famous line “better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven.” Essentially Milton says that since the devil cannot directly attack God, he instead attacks God’s creatures, people. This way the devil can inflict sorrow on God.
62. Again, it’s not as though Satan is using peoples’ souls as energy or something. When a person goes to hell, the devil and his minions torment them out of hate.
63. Yes my God is perfect. He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he (Deut 32:4). He made this universe, he made life, and he made a way for that life to be saved. He gave us great gifts; He has always kept His word and even placed His word above His name (Psalm 138:2).
64. As I mentioned before some say that the soul is the subconsciousness of the mind. Teachings on body, soul, and spirit also state that within your physical man is a spirit man, who looks exactly like your physical man. The soul is the go between of the two. By this I mean that your spirit receives from God, and your spirit makes that revelation known to your fleshly mind.
65. First of all, who is Satan? Satan was Lucifer, and angel of God. Lucifer left heaven and took a third of the angels with him. They went to hell and Lucifer became the king of this world. It was him he tempted Eve in the garden. Lucifer and Satan are mentioned twenty separate times in the Old Testament. Clearly they knew of his existence.
66. Define evil? Do you mean those unsaved or those who practice evil acts? Those who practice evil acts prosper because they pursue their goal by any means necessary. Depending on that goal, there could also be a demonic intervention aiding their cause. Take Hitler for example. The Catholic Church and many other Christians believe he was possessed. The rapid success of his campaign and his amazing oratory skills warrant suspension. If by evil you only mean those not saved, then the answer is simple. We live in a world based on rules and law, if a man practices certain activities, he will become successful.
67. Good people fail just as often as bad people. (These are very vague terms.) However, if by good you mean those who are saved, then I have two things to say. The devil seeks to discourage the believer, which could mean making them fail at something. However, the believer is also entitled to prosperity in Christ, which explains why several successful people are practicing Christians.
68. When Jesus comes, we are taken in an instant to meet him in the sky. As I said before we are given perfect bodies in heaven, so our physical body on the earth would not be necessary. Since we are described as meeting him among the clouds in the air, and being with him for ever, it sounds as though we are in our physical bodies. Depictions of the rapture support this.
69. This is the age old “why does God let bad things happen” question. The answer is that we live under the new covenant, meaning that any movement of God on this earth, until the coming of Christ, must start in the people of this earth. God ascended on high and gave gifts to men (Eph 4:8). It is not God’s fault that the airplane crashed, it crashed due to the laws established on this earth, and God could not step in to prevent the crash because it would break his covenant.
70. Sin is any action against God or is teaching. Anything that falls under the “Not loving thy neighbor as thyself” category is sin. Sin is an offense to God. It can also be seen as missing the mark.
71. How does Jesus’ act of commanding a fig tree to die make him imperfect? The tree was not producing any fruit, so Jesus removed it. Just because he did it a bit differently than a lumberjack would have, does not make it wrong. After his disciples wondered at the act he went on to explain to the disciples that if they confessed it and believed it, they could move a mountain into the ocean with their faith.
72. I’m pretty sure I’ve already answered this since most questions are becoming redundant at this point, but the Christians see Wicca as a demonic teaching, therefore it is wrong. Persecution arises from fear and wrongful hatred of this.
73. This epistle is specifically addressing the Thessalonians church. In the early days of the church, some of the Jews who did not accept Jesus as the Christ persecuted the Christians. This was one of those groups of Jews. And yes, the Roman government put Jesus to death, but Pilate washed his hands of Jesus’ death after trying to free him. It was the Jews who hated Jesus for calling himself the messiah when they believed he was not that were responsible for his capture and being put to the cross. They were constantly looking for ways to get rid of Jesus and finally found a way through the Roman government.
74. God did not create humans imperfect. God created man in His own perfect image. When man betrayed God and ate the fruit, man fell, and we all suffer the consequences of sin. God’s standards are so high because God wants us to be with him, but sin cannot abide in His sight. All have sinned and fallen short of God, so God sent us Jesus that we may dwell with Him. It is not entrapment because the reason we sin is not God’s fault, we sin because we choose to. And in choosing to sin we betray God and are condemned to hell, just like a criminal is condemned to jail after betraying the law.
75. Yes, man was originally created in God’s likeness. In fact, the Bible says man was created just below God, but even above the angels. The reason man is imperfect today is because sin has corrupted our bodies and bloodline from Adam until today.
Comment by Matt05 — 5 November, 2006 #
matto, i applaud you
you just pwned whoever wrote the questions
Comment by cornish — 5 November, 2006 #
Instead of everyone getting there panties in a complete and utter not, they need to look up just a few verses. I use to be a Christian, but am not now, But I can still easily refute this as the verses are contrary to what the article states.
I hope it isn’t the Christians that are complaining with such vulgarity, all you need to do is open the bible and see the verses. I actually find this humorous as the idiot who wrote it has no knowledge of the bible.
Comment by kgw — 5 November, 2006 #
matt05,
i am VERY impressed that you completed 75 questions. Hope you dom’t mind if ask clarifications where i feel you were vague.
0. why do modern toungues speakern not speak in known languages, when in the NT speaking in tongues meant speaking in a known lanquage.
1. maybe the qustion should be, why can forgiveness only be bought by blood, if God a God of love? Human Sacrifice is awful extreme, wouldn’t you say?
2. in answering question #2 you only talk about the Jews avoiding hell via the LAW. what of the gentile races that were extant at that time who did not have benefit of living under
Judaic Law?
3-5. Do you feel that the perpetrators of these acts believed they were acting under God’s orders? What do you think this has to do with the Genocide of the Cannanites by the Isrealites under God’s Orders?
6. in your answer, you seem to say that in the OT, God loved only the Hebrew people, even though he created all humans. Why did he not love all of his creation until NT times? You seem sort of like a battered spouse in being apologetic for God’s behaviour. “He hits me, but I know he loves me!” What do you think of this?
7. If Jesus calls her a dog becuase of her race, how is this not racism?
8. why should chirstians today use remarks the you say specifically refer to the epghesisan church at that time to base belifs and policies on?
9. How is telling slaves to not escape, keep their mouths shut, and keep on being slaves NOT suporting Slavery?
10. don’t jews still live under the old covenant? what about them?
11-13. i feel that you have stepped over these questions by over siimplifying them, but
i’ll have to get back to them.
14. I don’t know about Hebrews being harder to demonicaly posses. If Christ was going around casting out demons in Israel, wouldn’t it stand to reason that most of the people he was casting demons out of were Hebrew. Also, as someone who is medicated for epilepsy and Bipolar disorder, i would like to know what worse things could happen to me if i was demon posessed. what i’ve got is really bad!!
as a pentecostal, do you believe that most phenomena is demon or angel driven?
15. in light of your answer,why does the book of 1st Peter depict Jesus, while his body is in the tomb, going to minister to the SOULS in torment?
if the soul is in the brain, and is the “middleman to the soul” as you say, does this mean god makes allowances for people who are mentally disables and cant use their minds to accept Jesus, then transfer this acceptance to the spirit via the soul?
out of time, more later, looking forward to yr answers.
ps have no idea how you founf the TIME lol
peace
Comment by blissamerica — 5 November, 2006 #
It all boils down to the fact that the vast majority of people, since the begining of time, have been morally bankrupt, ignorant of themselves and the needs of others, fearful, spiteful, and gleeful liars. A book written by men about a concept that can never be explained has no other option than to be flawed logically and thus demand the absolute need to “blindly believe”. The Bible is an instruction manual written to find God and His salvation for a bunch of people, at the time, who were dirty, diseased, and brimming with fears brought on by living in a massive world of the unknown. It speaks of fear in a tone of a scolding parent. Hell is the promise for indiscretion. Heaven is for the good boys and girls. I can see that by leading it’s believers to live a life with all focus on getting to Heaven, the bible was attempting to raise up the lowly people of the day and bring meaning to their lives. But also, it has proven to be the template for the ways of controlling the masses and gaining influence through spiritual belief. God is shown to be pretty petty in actions and words pretty much though out the bible. not at all like the omnipotent being he is made out to be. God is shown to be separate from man, even to the point where one’s soul cannot even see the light of God. Which strikes me as odd, considering that we, as well as all things, are made up of God. His will, His Word. His Flesh. Just extensions of the divine. We are divinity incarnate. Yet then we are told we are soiled by evil, which was also created by God. It just makes me sad that as a race that we have nothing really better to do with ourselves than to segregate, degrade and destroy all that we find to be different from ourselves. It is our curse. A doubley tragic one considering that we are all made of the same stuff. God.
Comment by dan — 5 November, 2006 #
Dan, Bravo bravo bravo and of course Amen. LOL
Comment by DJ — 5 November, 2006 #
0- There are different types of speaking in tongues. Im going to keep this brief since i could easily write an entire page on this subject, but basically the unkown tongues are when a person either prays to God directly through their spirit. Their spirit, since it was put their by God, prays God’s perfect will for their life all the time. The tongues alos could have been for interpretation, that is a prophecy that God has given to the church that another in the church will translate to english. This can only be done as the Lord wills. However not all praying in tongues is in another language. Pastors and evangelists have been able to deliver messages to people in their native tongue, when the pastor didnt even know the person’s native language.
1-human sacrifice is extreme, but look at what was gained. the miracle after all was not that jesus died, it was that he was resurrected, thus defeating sin. Somebody’s blood had to be spilled because the wages of sin is death. In christ’s death he paid for all of us.
2-anybody who was not under the covenant at that time went to hell. yes a lot of people went to hell never knowing God. Thats why im thankful i live under the knew covenant.
3-5 I believe that the people persecuting really thought God was on their sides the whole way. Peoples understanding of God’s message of love is depressingly low. As for the genocide of the canaanites, israel was on its journey to the land promised to them by God, the land of milk and honey. when Arad, the king of the canaanites impeded them, Israel vowed to god that they would destroy the canaanites and their cities if god would let them. he did.
6-you raise a good point. i dont quite think im a battered spouse, i have a better covenant now than israel ever had. The reason God sided with his people and left the rest of the world alone was because israel was and still is god’s chosen people. Though God is not a respector of persons, woe to any nation that ever tries to war with israel. The reason why not all were open to salvation before jesus was because not all people were able to be saved. look at the wickedness of sodom and gamorrah. when god sent the great flood and spared only noah, that is because noah was literally the only man on earth not perverse. sin cannot abide in gods site, and if the world was unable to want to stop sinning, they could not be saved.
7-a good point. that could be seen as a racist remark. Jesus did not call her a dog, but only implied that Jesus’ first concern was for the Hebrews, not the gentiles. The new covenant did not take affect until jesus ascended into heaven and gave gifts to men
8- churches have taken a lot of things out of context and built all sorts of wrong doctrine out of them. Certain denominations have interpreted verses differently, resulting in the differences in policy. take the catholic church for example. I do not want to judge or offend any catholics out there, so let me just say that i disagree with their interpretations of certain texts of the bible.
9-The bible does tell bondsmen to endure their masters. I do not know how slavery worked at the time but if it was like slavery was in america, i am sure there were some good masters who treated their slaves well, and some wicked masters. all of these men were held accountable for any wrongful doing they did at any point in their life. the bible says that the slaves were suffering wrongfully, so the master would be held accountable for it.
10- The messiah that the Jews were waiting for appeared. some of them refused to believe it was jesus. they were looking for a man who would make israel the greatest nation on earth. I am not an expert on judaism and the majority of my understanding is on the new testament since that is what i live under. but the bible clearly states the only way to heaven is through jesus, deny jesus and you are denied god.
11-13, the reason why my responses seem simple is because in christianity, the answer is simple. any sin warrants death. to escape this sin you must confess jesus. that is it, there is nothing else to it. for this simple system god can be seen as merciful and just. where a lot of people miss the boat on this is that since they have never commited a “major” offense by today’s standards, they dont feel that they are all that bad and deserve eternal punishment. but in gods eyes all sin is the same.
14-i didnt mean to imply the hebrew people had a super power of sorts, only that since their heart was in teh right place they were less suseptable to corruption. Some of the people probably were of jewish descent, but some were also not. the point i was trying to make was that there were more cases of this happening because the messiah was on the earth and satan knew it and had to stop him. I am genuinely sorry for your condition, and i cannot begin to understand what it must be like for you, but accounts of poossession in the bible include a man being “torn” by a demon as it left him in Mark 1:26. And in mark 5 a demon possessed man lived in tombs. this man could not be held by any chains for many had tried to bind him and he always broke the bonds. This man was in the tombs night and day screaming and cutting himself with stones. When jesus commanded them out he sent them into a herd of swine. the swine bolted off a cliff into the ocean. I do not believe that all disease is caused by a demon. science has already proven germs. However certain conditions, such as cancer, have been seemed to be caused by a demon. As a christian the bible says that jesus bore sickness and pain on the cross. 1peter 2:24 says that by his stripes i was healed. therefore sickness and disease have no dominion over me. I have not been sick sence i came to understand this scripture nearly 5 years ago. there have been some marvelous opportunities for me to be sick, but i excercise my authority of it and command it out of my body and it must obey.
15-i have to apologize to you. body soul and spirit is one area i still do not have the firmest understanding of. it is the spirit that gets us to heaven, but the soul is linked to the spirt, just as it is linked to the flesh. So their souls would be in hell, and it was because they did not have the born again spirit that they were placed there. as for the mentally challenged. as i say in another response, people are initially born innocent and alive in god’s eyes. this is why children are taken in the rapture. but when a child reaches a certain age of development, one where he or she can understand and decide between right and wrong, they lose their innocence and are subject to the law of sin and death. This is when a person must accept jesus to get to heaven. So by this teaching, if a person were born mentally handicapped and their mind never reached a place of true understanding between right and wrong, they would still go to heaven because the age of accountability was never reached. likewise, aborted fetuses go to heaven (i am pro life by the way).
time?well it is the weekend and while i had initially planned to spend the day playing final fantasy xii. I started in on this and just found myself cranking away. I am very happy to see an interest in this and am more than happy to answer any questions you have. keep em coming.
Comment by Matt05 — 5 November, 2006 #
If you want the answers answered correctly, which I am pretty sure you don’t. I would go to a church and talk to the pastor. Take the list. Pastor’s go to school not only to learn the scripture but to learn how to teach and explain it. I honestly think most of your questions are silly and made to goad people into stupid answers.
Answer number one: Jesus had to die to fulfill the God’s demand of a sacrifice. Before Jesus an animal was sacrificed and this paid the price of man’s sin for the year. Cain tried offering fruits and vegatables but God would not accept them. Jesus was the only perfect human to ever live. His sacrifice was perfect. Because it was perfect, it last for all time and all you have to do is accept that sacrifice. If you accept it honestly then you will “ride your rainbow down into magic happy land.”
Please go to a church and meet these hateful people that your are questioning. With a few exceptions, I am sure you will find them nice and open to questioning. I believe that a little part of you wants to believe, otherwise you would not have posted an argument. People who know they are right seldom feel the need to prove it.
Comment by Budd — 5 November, 2006 #
matt05,
0. this seems like a very hard to verify miracle. in the case of unknown tounges, how does anybody know that the message and translation are really related?
i would very much like to see evidence of a modern missionnary speaking a known tongue they had never studied. it was my understanding that missionaries spent years preparing for their chosen field. could you direct me to any information?
1. if the resurection is what beats sin and not the death, then what are the rammifications of the ressurection of lazurus, if any?
2. your answer makes it hard for me to believe that a god who would send people to hell without telling them the rules is a God of Love, or fair, or just.
3-4 so you would say that the persecuters were not true christians, then? I agree with that. My followup question to you is as a chrsitian what percentage of people going to church truly, as you say, understand God’s love? Is understanding God’s love necessary to be saved, or just accepting God’s love?
5. again, a God that would play favorites among his creation is hard to accept as a Fair and Just God. Did God tell the Cannaanites he was giving their land away?
6. see 2 and 5
7. are you saying that people were still going to hell in the 40 days between the accension and the resurection? it seems strange that the miracle of salvation would have a gestation period.
8. you didn’t answer my question at all.
9. are you saying that God is okay with buying and selling people as property?
10. are you saying that all the jews that have died since the time of jesus are in hell, despite being God’s chosen people?
11- 13 sending jesus down to suffer and die seems like a really complicated plan to me. why not just have jesus come down like in Revelations the first time and that would be that!
You should read the last temptation of christ. it wont kill your faith, i promise. the author was a VERY DEVOUT christian. it is a moving depiction of how hellish it might be to be God in Flesh.
i think you’d like it.
14. you haven’t convinced me here. if you leave out the pig story, these folks just sound mentally ill to me.
15. actually i’m really not sure the question is even meaningful, but the ramifiacations are among the most interesting. what i was getting at was, rather than mechanics, was can mental debilitation doom a soul to hell?
you seemed to be saying at first that the spirit is what gets to heaven, but we seem to agree that the soul would reside in heaven or hell in the christian belief system.
your answer also seems to say that if someone’s mind, due to physical reasons, could not discern right from wrong, then God would “understand” and that person would be spared.
would you agree with this?
if yes, then what are the ramifications of the criminally insane?
For example, a paranoid schizophrenic who eventually kills because he is forced to inhabit a frightening reality by his biological disease. Would God forgive their sin of murder?
What if that person believed themself to be the Messiah?
To take to a surreal extreme, could someone like hitler conceivably be in heaven?
if as you say, aborted babies go straight to heaven, isnt abortion the most moral medical procedure because the aborted babies’ souls would be guaranteed to go to heaven rather than hell?
also, what age is the age of accountability you mentioned. Is the age given in the bible?
thanks for the polite discourse. it’s a really welcome change!
Comment by blissamerica — 5 November, 2006 #
The list of questions is choked with sarcasm and appeals toward emotion rather than logic. Nonetheless, they are good questions especially if asked from a truly curious mind (although I get the feeling the mind has a bias to prove).
150 answers that would involve daunting exegetical implications probably won’t happen anytime soon. However, I do recommend perusing something such as the Westminster Catechism. By no means does it cover every question listed here, but you might be surprised at how many it does answer–especially through implications and scripture reference. Also, keep in mind this is a document inspired by a divinely inspired text; thus, not everything is necessarily correct or in accordance with the mind of God. Of that, we know relatively little.
If anyone would like to spark up a personal, conversion-pressure-free dialogue about the above questions, I would be glad to dive into one. Public forums on such matters are too much of a hassle for those compassionately seeking truth and certainty. Email me, tommy_jaundice at yahoo dot com.
Comment by crule — 5 November, 2006 #
Ok, im not going to answer all of these, because you didnt deem it worthy, research is key to an argument. I am not bias in any way, but for starters- in the old testement people sacrificed lambs and other treasured animals as offerings to be cleansed of sins- jesus has been given the title “lamb of god” because he was the ultamate sacrifice, cleasing us of our sins. Murders, yes, like all relegions to date have been envolved with murders and genocide. HOwever, ironicly, Atheists have killed more people than any of the relegions. Look it up. And were u made it obvious that you ahve no idea what ur arguing- when the bible declares the women of the Syrophoenician race, they are refering to a race that jesus was not born of- was was looked down on- the significance is that jesus loved her wiht no care for her race, so he cast the demon from her child- that verse actually supports equality.. try reading and return a post with valed questions you have properly researched for yourself.
Comment by yeah — 5 November, 2006 #
A quick clarifying point (or two) that don’t detract from your questions.
1. Jews don’t beleive in Satan and didn’t absorb any Egyptian gods, Set or otherwise. There is no hell in Judaism nor is there a devil. ‘Satan’ refers to an obstacle in the path of doing the right thing, it does *not* refer to a being or creature. That’s a common misconception held by Christianised Jews and Jews who don’t know jack about their own religion (i.e. reform).
2. Jews don’t believe only Jews go to heaven. In fact, Judaism is one of the very few religions (and only Abrahamic religion) that does not require conversion for you to be ‘let in the gates’. This is why Jews actively discourage conversion – there’s no need. Jew’s in fact have a harder time meeting our 613 commandments, while others only have 7 to live up to. Someone asked the question about people not living under Judaic law going to hell. Non Jews (including Christians) only have to live up to these 7 laws to avoid any such ‘hell’. (They are basically: don’t steal, don’t murder, don’t worship false idols, don’t eat the flesh of living animals, don’t curse G-d (take name in vain, don’t engage in sexual immorarility (beastiality, incest, etc) and finally do set up courts of law). Keep those, and most people do, and you’ll be fine.
3. Not sure why there are repeated references to women being subserviant in Judaism. You’ve got to remember that what you refer to as the ‘Old Testament’ is only a very small part of the story and, without the Talmud, completely impossible to understand. A more complete understanding will help you realise that in Judaism, women are naturally on a higher level than men and therefore do not have as many obligations, requirements and are by and large, considered ‘closer to G-d’. Of course people will respond with questions such as “why do women have to sit seperately from men (during prayer)?” and “why can women not be rabbi’s” or the like, but again, they’re not questions based around understanding, rather misunderstanding. Women *don’t* have to sit seperately from men – men have to sit seperately from Women. Men are considered as not being able to concentrate properly on prayer with women around, where as the women, you will find, are fully able to see the men (who can’t see them). As for women not being rabbis, what the questions refers to is “why can’t women lead prayer?”. The reason is because women are not obligated to be there at all! (Remember, they’re ALREADY on a higher level), so it’s not that they cannot lead the prayer but that the men are obligated to attend and the women are not. The Christian Bible may say the woman is second to the husband (I honestly don’t know what it says) but the Jewish tradition teaches that the woman basically runs the home and is responsible for teaching the children, etc.
4. Why do bad things happen to good people, etc.. I cannot for a minute pretend to know the Christian answer to this, however I know of several Jewish responses. No one of these is considered the only answer. you will find Judaism very rarely imposes a set belief and actively encourages open discourse. a) ‘Sins of the fathers’. This implies not that your Dad did something wrong but that YOU did something wrong in a past life and now you’re making up for it. b) A person who is good may be accepting minor punishment now (such as not being rich) so their transition to an afterlife is smoother and more agreeable. Basically there are dozens of answers to this – google will explain better than me.
5. The ‘Hebrew G-d is venegeful’. Wrong. The Jewish G-d is demonised in a Christian society, where Christians are intentionally taught mistruths is a better way to put this. Such common statements as ‘an eye for an eye’ are great examples of this. It’s well known to any scholar of biblical texts that this DOES NOT refer to literally taking someone’s eye out. It’s very clearly and in quite easy to understand terms refering to financial compensation for causing someone an injury, by accident or neglect, something Americans should be all too familiar with. The amount of money is based on what *you* would value you eye at (if someone lost an eye working for you). It *does not* refer to poking out someone’s eye or starting wars. This is another example where extreme antisemetism on the Christian church saw an opportunity to take a part of a line, from a complete text, out of context and use it to justify their incredibly bad treatment of others.
Q34: “Do you believe that your god is anti-homosexual? If so, explain why he would create homosexuals in the first place. If not, refute or explain away Leviticus 20:13 and Romans 1:26-27.” – Ok, no idea on Romans coz I don’t know the Christian stuff. Basically, the Bible tells you that you shouldn’t be homosexual. Does this mean people who are homosexual should be descriminated against? No, of course not. The bible tells you not to eat pork and not to drive on Saturday but we don’t beat up people who do. The bible uses no stronger language regarding homosexuals than Sabbath breakers. The srong anti-homosexuality component once again comes from societal teachings, not genuinely from the Bible. The Bible slants against homosexuality as it the very first commandment in the Bible is to ‘be fruitful and multiple’.
Anyway, Junanman, I don’t think your questions were all that silly, as people above have stated. You’re entitled to ask them and I’m frankly interested some of the answers, too. I’d answer them all but I really should get some work done.
Comment by Gumbercules — 5 November, 2006 #
Great list junaman!
Also, have a read of “Which is Stronger: Godfluence or Manfluence?
http://stuhasic.wordpress.com/2006/11/04/which-is-stronger-manfluence-or-godfluence
Comment by stuhasic — 5 November, 2006 #
You guys are just taking an opportunity to down-talk the Christianity faith. The very fact that neither has any in depth knowledge about the faith justifies it so. If you don’t believe Christianity, then just forget about it. Why bother get these bible references just to get your point? I mean, the internet too. Ask your Christian friends about it, if you have any.
” Explain why your god’s only son had to die so we can go to magic happy land when we croak. ”
No comment even on this question. Like I said, don’t like the faith, then don’t care about it. You’ll get your answer when you’re on your deathbed.
Comment by Gumbercules — 5 November, 2006 #
I am not relegious but Jesus Christ was a real man and if you think of him as a phylosipher teaching (not preaching) the golden rule maybe you guys could take a look at your self. And lets rip apart your life for fun. Do you think it is better to rip someone apart based on beliefs intead of skin colour its still prejudice, hatred, if you want answers look if your just stirrin up trouble fuck off
Comment by AJ — 5 November, 2006 #
You’ve taken the piss out jesus and the bible – what about mohammed and the koran – or is that taboo?
Comment by peka — 5 November, 2006 #
No, but I’ve never seen a Muslim proselytise to me personally…
Comment by junaman — 5 November, 2006 #
You remind me of one of the comedy sketches of Mitch Headburg. “”At the job interview, the test had these wiered questions that there was no right answer too. Do you like sugar… aaand LSD? yes or no.”"
because you myfriend are so open to contradict every single word that you with no matter what anyone through at you will still toss it down and look at it for a rough face value.
And you my friend are no better than any of what you despise, Religion. With your prosecusion of those in religion, you do the same as Religion did to millions for not believing them.
email me, if you say high i will send you the answers
Comment by Aaron Lapp — 5 November, 2006 #
@stuhasic
Great article and nice blog, I will be blogrolling it
Comment by junaman — 5 November, 2006 #
@Aaron Lapp
Putting some of that into coherent English sentences will help get your point accross…
Comment by junaman — 5 November, 2006 #
First of all Jesus was not a rasisct to answer question 7.
Second of all you didnt finish reading the entire scripture because in verses 29 and 30 Jesus answers her request.
Jesus is not rascist and if you had read the New Testament and Epistles you would know that Jesus was first sent to the Jews and later he used Paul to goto the Gentiles so that both the Jew and the Gentile could come into relationship with God.
Jesus not only helped this woman who was a Greek but, he also helped a Roman Centurian who had a sick servant. Christ said he would come heal the servant and the centurian said you dont have to come but just state he is healed and it will be done.
Christ responds saying in all of Israel or out of all the Jews there is none who have faith like this and Christ said as you have believed it is done unto. The centurians servant was healed that same hour. Christ also explains that many will come from other nations other than Israel and will entire the kingdom where as the children of the kindgom, Israel, will end up in hell because they dont believe. You can find this in Mk 8:5-13. All you have to do is have faith and seek after Christ and he will help anyone.
Next I will address your question concerning Christians who have persecuted people that were not Christian.
First of all show me one place in the Bible where Christ says to go into the all the world preaching the gospel and then kill those that dont accept his truth. If you can do this then you can state that these people where acting in accordance with what Christ taught.
Secondly the Catholic Church is responsible for killing more Christians than any other group on the planet. If you would like a good book about the bloody history of the Catholic Church check out Dave Hunt’s book The Woman Rides the Beast. It is a great book with a ton of referances.
As far as Calvin and Luther go they both started out correct and then decided to trash people with the gospel instead of letting them choose. God does not force himself on anyone, He just puts the choice of life and death before you and you must pick one. Anyone who forces a choice is not acting in a godly way and is in major error.
The last thing I will address is 19 because this is getting rather long.
Adam and Ever messed up and dropped the whole universe into sin. That means every man born because of Adam and Eve’s fall are born into sin and God knew that it was not fair for him to punish people for their mistake so, He made a way for all people to be free. God decided in order to get people free and not punish them for something they didnt do the second person of the Godhead would give up His attributes as God[omnipresence, omniscence, and all knowledge], keeping His title only to live as a man, to take man’s punishment for original sin[on the cross and suffering in hell], raising from the dead so we could be free, and all you have to do to recieve this free gift is accept it. When you say to God I can get in another way you are saying that the sacrifice He made for the entire human race wasnt good enough or correct and you wonder why He might have an issue with that?
You also take the many are called and few are chosen verse out of context. You must take that verse and read it in light of other scripture, this is the way to study the Bible so you do not err. If you study that verse in light of John 3:16-18, 1 John 2:2, Deuteronomy 30:19 you will notice three things. 1. God loved the entire world, not just the elect. God elected all men to salvation by dying for them but, they must choose the free gift he has for them. God cannot force you to take it you must recieve it by freewill.
2. God took the sin of the entire world
3. God gave you a choice between Heaven and Hell, life and death, justification or damnation and that is everyone’s choice to make. To say that God chooses for you is to be in error. God is all knowing and knows the depths of a man’s heart and its motivation. He already knows what choice you are going to make. He knows that the majority of people would rather live their lives in a self destructive cycle istead of letting him drive the car.
You have also asked why does God allow innocent children to die. You are leaving out one side of the equation when it comes to the entire circumstance. In John 10:10 Christ said the thief[satan] comes not but to steal, kill and destroy; I have come that they might have life and it in abundance. You forget that satan can attack the human race. If you do not have a relationship with God then God cannot help you because you have tied his hands. He cannot help those who do not ask for His help. That would be like a person coming into your house without your permission. God is a gentleman and He does not force himself on the human race. You must look at each situation by where people are with God and where their faith is concerning God’s protection. Jesus healed those by the way the believed or were in faith to believe. He did not force them to be any other way than the statement of faith that they made. Do a study on this and you will see it to be true.
I have listened to what you have had to say and read what a lot of other people stated. There are other things I would like to address but, this is long enough. I will give you an analogy to finish off my statement to try to help you understand how God opperates.
You must realise that God tries to stop people from driving over the bridge[in the personal, emotional, and physical lives] that is out by putting signs up to warn people. People tend to look at the sign and ignore it and keep driving. God puts more and more signs up until finally the person kills himself driving over the bridge into the chasm in their personal life. Once the person has driven over the edge, having ignored all the signs, they blame God and say how could you let this happen to me! You like everyone else has a choice. That choice is between life and death and God has given you this choice. Please choose wisely.
Comment by bean — 5 November, 2006 #
As far as the Jews not believing in satan I think someone is misinformed because satan is in Job causing him plenty of issues. The Pharisees even said to Jesus in Matthew 12:24-28 that Christ casts out devils by satan. The Pharisees were the sect of religious Jews who knew the law better than anyone. To say the Jews do not believe in Satan is to be in major error.
Comment by bean — 5 November, 2006 #
Quite simply, I do not have to explain my faith or myself to you.
Comment by AthoughtBefore — 5 November, 2006 #
Bean, I can’t pretend to know what’s in any Christian text but it looks to me like your responses are well thought out and probably fairly accurate.
That said, on the Satan issue, it’s probably not the best to quote Matthew to me because, as a Jew, that text has no meaning to me; any more than a verse from the Quoran would for you.
In Christian belief, Satan is a fallen angel that has freedom of choice and rebels against G-d. Judaism’s view is very different. Isaiah 45:7 and Devarim (Deuteronomy) 13 show that G-d created the temptation to do evil to test our loyalty. That is why the word Satan, which in Hebrew literally means an adversary (Vayikra (Numbers) 22:22) that comes to challenge us. Our mission is to overcome these temptations and do what is correct. The Torah (Bereshis (Genesis) 4:7) teaches that this mission is within our ability to fulfill.
That is to say, there is an “adversary” however to Jews, this adversary is not an independant being, sitting in Hell and plotting against us. It’s the concept of the yatzeh hara (i.e. the inclination to do that which suits us, not that which is holy). Even then, the Yazteh hara is not necessarily bad, sometimes we need to be selfish or we’d never marry, build houses, grow as society, etc.
Don’t just take my word for it, though. Here: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/responsa/r0005.php
None the less, to all above, there’s no need to trash talk other people’s beliefs. I don’t believe in the new testament but I don’t have the slightest problem with other’s believing in it.
Also, there seems to be at least two “Gumbercules” on this forum.. The guy who said “You guys are just taking an opportunity to down-talk the Christianity faith. The very……. Ask your Christian friends about it, if you have any.” – isn’t me.
Comment by Gumbercules — 5 November, 2006 #
@blissamerica
“also, what age is the age of accountability you mentioned. Is the age given in the bible?”
13 for boys, 12 for girls.
The first mention of this in the Bible can be found in Parsha Lech Lecha, Bereshis, where Avraham Avenui enters into Brit Mila at the age of 99 and his first son, Yishmael, is 13.
Also from the Parshas Vayishlach: “And it came to pass on the third day, when they (the people of Shchem) were in pain, that two of Yaakov’s sons, Shimon and Levi, Dinah’s brothers each took his sword (ish charbo) and they came upon the city confidently, and killed every male,” that we learn that a boy from the age of thirteen is obligated to keep the law. Shimon and Levi were at that time thirteen years old and the verse refers to them as “men” so we may learn that a 13 year old (male) is called obligated.
For girls, it’s 12, because as I mentioned above girls are generally more mature and intelligent :-p
Comment by Gumbercules — 5 November, 2006 #
@BlissAmerica
Sorry to answer you in 2 seperate replies.
“Did God tell the Cannaanites he was giving their land away?” – Yes. In fact, they were never to keep it from the beginning.
After the whole incident with the Ark and Noah, etc, one of Noah’s sons, Ham, indecently assaulted his intoxicated father (Noah). In return, Noah cursed Ham (and by association his son, Canaan) to a life of servitude. Through a convoluted series of events, the Canannites came to worship Ba’al (idol worship) and were duely warned of their impending doom.
Comment by Gumbercules — 5 November, 2006 #
Excellent article. I agree 100% with what has been argued here. I do disagree somewhat with *how* its been argued. But seeing as you didn’t write this there’s little point here. Great link though.
One thing though, until I scrolled up to reread the title of the article, I thought it was written by you. While you did link the original article, and state that you didn’t write it, I don’t think you’ve been fair to the author and made it clear that this is not yours – clearly, half the people here do. I don’t mean to rag on you or anything, its obvious you’re not trying to steal this, I just want to make sure credit is given where credit is due. Sticking the authors name in bold, and/or at the end would probably do the trick.
Otherwise, fantastic.
Comment by noobule — 6 November, 2006 #
Can I ask you about Satan in the book of Genesis then? This is the first book in the Old Testament and I am not sure if it is the first book in the tanach? If you could help me with that info I would appreciate it. Satan came into the Garden and tempted Eve who then turns to Adam, who was not decieved, and offers the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. If the Jews do not believe satan or the adversary exists as an individual how do they job 1:6-12? In Isaiah 14:12-16 teaches about Lucifer who is an arch angel who becomes satan when he tries to over throw God on His thrown. What do the Jews teach about Lucifer here? There are more scriptures in the Old Testament the plainly show satan is more than an event. I am just wondering why the Jews teach in this fashion based on the 2 I have given, does this not plainly contradict that view?
Comment by bean — 6 November, 2006 #
btw you would have to read the new testament to see the relation to genesis 3 so, please just answer the job and the isaiah question. Forgive me for adding that when you do not read the NT.
Comment by bean — 6 November, 2006 #
I think a lot of the differences come down to interpretation. Often a translation and interpretation take things in a different direction. In normative Jewish understanding, the serpent from Genesis was just that – a serpent and nothing more.
In the book of Job (which is discussed at several times in the Talmud as mearly being a parable or fable, if you will, to aid in understanding. Other references are more positive he was a real, existing person), we see a discussion between an angel and G-d, where the angel attempts to convice G-d that Job is mearly good because he has it easy. The references to Satan again refer to ‘an accuser’, ‘adversary’ or stumbling block and don’t directly relate the Angel as being *the* Satan. Again, there are issues with translation upon translation here. The role of Satan here is that of, well, a role, not an actual being. So I suppose it’s best explained that the angel acts as *a* satan, i.e. an accuser (which is what the hebrew means), not that Satan is the angel’s name.
Throughout the Torah (5 books of Moshe – Moses) there are references to angels testing men. Angels visit Lot in Sodom and Gemorah (someone mentions above how Lot offers his daughters to protect them.. remember that Lot is not held up as a shining example, rather his line leads to the Moabites). Angels visit and test Avraham, when he sees them passing and offers them food and shelter. Midrashically, angels question G-d giving the bible to men at all and in fact Moses must argue with them, to receive it. These angels are never held up to be “Satan”, although they adopt the same line of arguement as the angel in the Book of Job.
Helel (Lucifer in Christian translations, I think?) in Isaiah 14 is not equated with the Jewish concept of HaSatan (the adversary). Helel is not a personified being, rather the word means “shining one” and refers to the city or location itself. Here, the prophet is simply speaking of the fall of Babylon and along with it the fall of her deities, Helel and Shahar. The interpretation that this refers to a being attempting to overthrow G-d is foreign to Judaism, as G-d is by definition all powerful. The ‘man that made the earth tremble’ refers to the Babylonian monarch and the ‘pit’ literally refers to the grave, i.e. death.
Throughout the Tanakh you can find many instances of the word used to describe human and angelic adversaries to man. There’s a reference in Numbers 22:22 where the satan is seen to be doing a positive act.
There is a view that an angel acting as a ‘prosecuting lawyer’ against mankind can be seen as satan, however even in this event, Judaism does not see this angel as having independent power to act against G-d’s will. In Judaism, mankind alone has the capacity for ‘free-will’ – angels (even fallen ones!) have no capacity for free will, which is the very reason we required our “guidebook” (the bible) to set us straight and the very reason that Moses was able to gain it, even though the angels didn’t want us to have it.
Therefore, when an angel does act as an accuser, it is still in accordance with G-d’s will and does not want victory over his own lord, rather that the tested person succeed.
Makes an amazing study of how different interpretations may be, doesn’t it? I must admit to knowing very little (in depth) about Christianity and basically nothing at all about Islam but I’ve always been fascinated with how different an approach three groups of people can get from the same texts.
Comment by Gumbercules — 6 November, 2006 #
again, i am amazed that this entire thread hasn’t devolved into flaming and mudslinging!
it is very interesting to get so many interpretations and perspectives respectfully discussed in one thread.
really! atheists, agnostics, born agains, and, well i’ll just say “other” (that would be me) having a polite transaction to truly undersand one another!
i am much appreciative of the Jewish perspectives that are now being posted, as i have never really had much of an opportunity to discuss the talmud or OT with someone really studied from the Jewish faith. that alone, to me, makes this whole thread worth it.
I studied the OT from the evangelical perspective when i was formally studying the bible, and it always bothered me that the OT was used just to prop up the NT. I felt like there had to be a lot of nuance I wasn’t getting.
By all means, let’s keep this going!
I don’t see how the questions necessarily preclude Islamic discussion as well. It has been my understanding that the muslim faith does honor jesus as a prophet, and accepts the OT histories as well. tho i could be wrong about that.
Comment by blissamerica — 6 November, 2006 #
i apprecitate you response to the age of accountability question.
your answer seems to be from the talmud, right?
is there any reference to the age of accountability in the books of the OT that the christian faith shares with judaism?
thanks
Comment by blissamerica — 6 November, 2006 #
I am not the biggest believer in christianity, but what this guy says here is complete rubish. I can barely make sense of a few of his points but not really. I really hope that when people read this they didn’t take the stupid pill the author of this bullshit took, or else you will be rowing in the same boat as him. NOT GOOD
Comment by Gravy — 6 November, 2006 #
Junaman’s Reponse to a Quote – “Umm??? W….T….F?
Hahahahahah, you made a funny…
Would you care to clarify how the existence of a god would in any way relate to view that priests have touched me?”
Junaman’s Reponse to “me” – “Really? Who the fuck is your sister? Oh, thirteen independent psychological organisations tested you for many years, and found that you were retarded…
See, just as valid as your “proof”
Churches brainwashing gay people does not give you a good name by the name…”
Junaman’s Respone to Aaron Lapp’s Quote –
“Putting some of that into coherent English sentences will help get your point accross”
Another Question –
“You’ve taken the piss out jesus and the bible – what about mohammed and the koran – or is that taboo?”
Junaman’s Response –
“No, but I’ve never seen a Muslim proselytise to me personally”
Junaman, your only response to anyone answering your questions is to give them back an insult or start swearing at them! Is it our fault that you have no real way to prove what you believe when others do? Do us a favor, quite using immature comebacks to try to defend your “faith” or “non-faith” or whatever you want to call it.
TO DJ
Wow, great argument. Alot in there about pedefiles and stuff, but no real content. Ok, you say there are plenty of REAL theologians (by the way, if hes trying to disprove GOD, hes not a THEOLOGIAN, hes an ATHEIST) that have heared of this guy, name me some. I give proof texts and I have resources for all of my answeres. Where are yours? You just spit out a bunch of YOUR OWN personal views on stuff. You call me stereotypical? How am i? Cause I defend my faith? Most Christians use sentances like “God works in mysterious ways” or “God can’t be proved.” I am able to give you logial and rational reasons to why these questions are based on complete inconsistancies and experience and misconceptions. YOURE the one looking through it with closed eyes, and your the one “passing judgement without hearing the evidence”. If you want to prove that there is no God, and you are going to live a lonely life with no meaning and die a lonely sad old man, then go for it, be my guest. But I have proof enough for me, and I could care less what some immature little boy has to say about priests being gay or me being egocentric or your “insuluts”….WOW my faith is torn apart now by your GENIOUS!!!!
Is that what you wanted to hear? LoL….
Junaman, I am greateful that you put this post up. If anything, it has strengthened my faith seeing how many poeple will stick up and stand up to people like you who think its fun to bash our faith and our purpuose in life. But if you think putting up a post is going to change how I feel about My God, or how other people will feel, your sadly misguided…I don’t expect to convince you of anything, your free to think whatever you want to think. I am not brainwashed, I was NOT christain, then I made a decision ON MY OWN. No one brainwashes ANYONE in Christianity, if they do, it’s not Christianity. Christianity is a personal relationship with God, not a split second choice. Those poeple, who you said get “brainwashed” are the ones who have fallen away from Christianity. They never really got it the first time.
You have your “experience and reason” and I have my faith. Beleive it or not, i trust God more than I trust you, or myself
Comment by ROb — 6 November, 2006 #
Hmm who to trust, some human, or the one who made humans…
Comment by ROb — 6 November, 2006 #