“Does God Exist?” – Does It Matter?
23 August, 2006 at 9:47 pm | Posted in Incompetence Exposed | 146 CommentsWell this is one question that everyone seems to rant on about on interweb blogs or articles and one that I have been asked to write about it since the beginning of this blog, being so avidly anti-theistic and all.
However, feeling that this has been overused, overranted, overwritten, overabused and overwaffled about, I will instead talk about the complete irrelevance of it. I will show that it has no meaning, no point and no reason. It is just, plain, dumb.
This is god:
BOW DOWN TO THE ALMIGHTY!!! GIVE HIM YOUR SOUL! YOU SINNER!
What’s that you say? He isn’t god? He doesn’t exist?
BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!
You point to a picture of:
Well they can’t both exist, can they?
There are so many theories about different gods, different interpretations so many differing views, that obviously not one of them is true.
Now apparently far more people believe that this “Jesus” character is god, rather than the Flying Spaghetti Monster. (They’ll all burn in hell)
Now more importantly these so called believers, feel that they must do the work of their one (three apparently) true God/s.
Now that’s quite easy to do because obviously:
God also hates homophobes (hmm)
And more importantly
So of course it’s quite easy to do god’s bidding as there’s such a variety of things to hate. Oh, God is so devilishly evil!
So really this all loving god loves everything so much that he just must hate those damned figs.
Quite frankly, I do not believe god exists, but if he did, would that change much? Would that justify all the killings that were done in his name? The death to the infidel? The evangelical blubberings?
All the hate?
Would for so many the need to worship god be justified? Does it not occur to them that if god is omnipresent, omniscient, omnifarious, omnipotent and an omnibus, he does not need to be worshipped?
God
Apparently Christians believe that they must worship “god” and go to church because he tells them that they should meet with other Christians, talk to each other. Yes, because of course, Christians are superior to all other humans, and the status quo just doesn’t suit their elitist organisation.
I ask you now, will the existence of god change anything? If he was all of those omni things, then wouldn’t a lot of Christians, Jews, Muslims etc go to hell? If there is such a place, and if it’s even a bad place. Because Satan sounds nowhere as bad as god. He believes in logical, rational thought rather than blind belief. He is described as intelligent even. Hell sounds like a lovely place to me.
It’ll suit me just right…..
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If Jesus had been killed 20 years ago, Catholic school children would be wearing little Electric Chairs around their necks instead of crosses.
Lenny Bruce
Comment by Omni Bus— 24 August, 2006 #
When it comes to expository writing, your incompetence is second to none. Grammer needs work too.
Comment by Ryan Biggs— 25 August, 2006 #
When it comes to missing the point, YOU’RE RETARDED…….(and most probably a Christian at that).
You see your so called “expository” writing doesn’t usually refer to omnibuses being God, and is usually not written by a Pastafarian….
YOU HAVE NO SENSE OF HUMOUR….. because the Church has sucked it all out of you…
By the way, I’ll leave you with a quote from Shakespeare: “When insulting someone’s “grammer”, it is usually preferable to spell grammar correctly.”
Comment by junaman— 25 August, 2006 #
I love your point of view. I tell my god fearing friends the same thing all the time. I tell them if there is a god and heaven when you die you wont know it because youll be dead and wont be you. So it makes no difference. I also tell them that Satanism is more about free will and free thought than devil worship and goat killing. But that dosent matter either.lol
“Why should I fear death? If I am death is not, If death is I am not”
Epicuros
Comment by gadsen76— 26 August, 2006 #
“Quite frankly, I do not believe god exists, but if he did, would that change much? Would that justify all the killings that were done in his name? The death to the infidel? The evangelical blubberings?”
Yes. You fail to realize that there are many wars, killings, and murders commanded, if not direcly done, by God in the bible. If there is such a thing as justification in killing, it would be by God.
Ironic?
Comment by Perversion— 26 August, 2006 #
God looks tasty………..mmmmm spaghetti and meatballs *drools*
Comment by Jimmy— 26 August, 2006 #
I dont think anybody believes that jesus is god
Comment by JJ— 26 August, 2006 #
Wow guys your all real cool god is not a flying spaghetti monster ok! in the book of exodus it shows that good is a spirit of good and lives in the hearts of all men. He is not i repeat not a flying spaghetti monster
@ JJ- For one most christians think jesus is a man and a god dumbass
@Junaman- Dude i think you mean your a rastafarian and by the way rastafarian just means you smoke a lot of weed so you shouldnt call other ppl retarded you retard
Comment by The stinky cheese man says— 26 August, 2006 #
Stinky cheese man you’re an idiot, do some research on rastafarians before you speak on their relidion, it doesn’t simply mean” you smoke pot” you moron….
Comment by Tech N9ne— 26 August, 2006 #
oh and your the expert on that wow its real cool to have some fucking black feg as your screen name tech n9ne and by the way rap aint cool its just another disco
Comment by The stinky cheese man says— 26 August, 2006 #
oh and by the way you call me an idiot and you cant even spell religion?
let me help you out there
R E L I G I O N
and there we go
stay in school buddy
or not you sound pretty stupid anyway
Comment by The stinky cheese man says— 26 August, 2006 #
jesus gave me a troll when i was 12 and now i got a creme pie i dont know what to do with it.
nanananana
nanananna
an
an
an
an
ana
nanaa
http://www.thecrapper.net/EC7DEC279007_view.phtml
Comment by c0ke— 26 August, 2006 #
I hope god will forgive you for your blasphemy.
I also think you should keep your opinions like this to yourself, nobody wants to know about what you think, who the heck are you anywany?
Thanks again, and when it comes to your terminal braeth, you will soon realise that you wished you never wrote this shit.
Comment by Anon— 26 August, 2006 #
my spaghetti god can kick your pansy ass jesus ass any day! but seriously we waste alot of effort trying to convince each other god exists or not while the inescapable truth dangles in front of everyones face, all you need to do is open your eyes. IF god exists, then why is half the planet starving? why do a handful of men grow rich beyond belief while religious sheep give them more money? satan doesn’t employ a single salaried helper, the opposition employs millions. wake up, shoot your preacher, and your president who thinks he is god while your at it. the world needs a moral kick in the teeth and a lit stick of dynamite shoved down it’s throat for good measure.
Comment by poop dogg— 26 August, 2006 #
I find this whole thing sort of upsetting. Christians culting it up in church? what? Your think people go to church to talk about the outsiders? Obviously, you have never been to church. Usually, people go to church to feel better, to get to know God through prayer, to find themselves. Just because there are a growing number of extreme christians doesn’t mean everyone who attends church is like that. I attended church when I was younger, and of course I met a few psychos…I meet them outside of church too. And, although I no longer attend church, I do believe there is a higher being…and I choose to believe it because it brings hope and unity to many people. Unity in the way that all of us have an opinion on the subject…and have strong feelings about it as well. Hope…something I think we all need in a time like this. It’s depressing to hear about the wars, the murders in my own city, the scary shortages of water and food that are being predicted for a not-so-distant future. I don’t like how divorce rates are sky rocketing, I dislike this homophobia, but I also dislike the heterophobia too. I’m scared, just like most individuals in the world right now…and sometimes it’s nice to think “if there’s a God, maybe it’ll be better someday”.
Honestly, I don’t understand why so many people are out there to bash christians as well as religion. Why is it sooo important for people to disprove God, or rant about how God’s teachings are way off. It’s upsetting. People think that just because you believe in God, you’re a fool. But, even famous scientists believe in a God. Even intelligent, well-rounded individuals believe in God.
Anyway, I just find it interesting to see such a growing number of athesists. I respect them, my boyfriend doesn’t believe in God and he has good arguments…but he respects my belief as well. That’s how it should be.
Comment by Samantha— 26 August, 2006 #
I dont thinkk Jesus is God…priests, pastors and church officials have allowed the misconception to persist. Jesus was the “son” of God in the same sense that we are all the children of God. He cannot be God. He was the prophet of God and it is truly sad that we have given more reverence and more precedence to him than to his creator God
Comment by michael turner— 26 August, 2006 #
I’m not normally one of the grammar morons, but I just can’t help it this time.
You’re = you are, a conjunction.
I think they teach that in the second grade.
————————————————–
and there we go
stay in school buddy
or not you sound pretty stupid anyway
Comment by Elohim— 26 August, 2006 #
How narrow minded, speaking scientifically, science has laudible explanations as to the origine of matter from a molecular level.
(( sounding a bit like the chicken & the egg? lets skip that then, say that miraculas molecular mishap materialised, we have a cell ….what the blazes animated it, life cannot arise from dead matter, life is a force not unsimiliar to gravity, but far more precious as it affords thought, emotion, reason, decision, awareness, planning, life can only be infused into dead matter by something that already enjoys life, life from life, life sharing life but hey if we cant defend our athiestic belief lets call it the missing link. This is but a small portion of dynamic reasoning on the reality of a creator as all matter gives evidence of design, take time to meditate on what physics teaches us from the humble atom to the known universe. Sorry about my spelling:-0 couldn’t be bothered going to a dictionary
I. E… to form a protein cell, so called evolution requires that some 20 left handed amino acids miraculously find themselves in a global organic soup, funny …. many non believers don’t believe in miracles, …. lets just give them the benefit of the doubt that such a miracle occurred & that some how these amino acids found each other formed & produced a single protein cell, but hang on such amino acids can’t form a protein cell in an oxygen rich environment, much as oil is dispersed by detergent, yet on the other hand for the protein cell to survive their needs to be oxygen
Comment by rp.mad— 26 August, 2006 #
Dude all of you shut the hell up think at his point of view before dissing him… If you dont think at his point of view you have no right to read what he has to say…. You people aren’t really into religion since your all dumbasses for disobeying it… I don’t really agree with him but still… i know what he or she is talking about and really… at some point in your life we have all wondered if god really existed dont lie… just remember those times when you lost someone dear… it makes you wonder still.. though..
Comment by Raishuno— 26 August, 2006 #
by the way God has a name try looking up Genesis 6: 3; or Psalm 83: 18; or maybe Isaiah 26: 4; then again Isaiah 12: 2 use the older versions of the scriptures such as the king James version, if you don’t like what you see do some research on the name. Then say g,day to those bearing that name.
Comment by rp.mad— 26 August, 2006 #
Astounding the ammount of people that not only don’t have a sense of humor but take things out of perspective and even begin to insult over it. You people that consider yourself good christians yet talk badly about him need to keep your mouth shut because when you go about saying he’ll be going to hell or something horrible for posting this, then you are lowering yourself to the level of the grubs that feed on corpses. Apparently you’ve lost your sence of humor and your open-mindedness to allow you to even attempt to understand things in the world.
Anyway rant all you want grubs, I will keep my head held high that even though I’m not christian or even jewish or muslim, I don’t go from a human being to a grub because I disagree! You people disgust me. And this person that wrote this article has my respect for even voicing his opinion in the manner he did. Propper grammar is not as important as the idea that was developed.
Comment by Hydra— 26 August, 2006 #
rock on flying spaghetti god!
Comment by mynd— 26 August, 2006 #
I have to say, after reading about all this discussion over whether or not god exists, I am definitely happy to see that other people are noticing how brainwashed these ‘christians’ really are… it’s like they don’t even use the free will of the supposedly existing god…. its ludicrous!
I also think that if there is a god, he/she/it would want us to be happy in life and not bickering over who is right or wrong… anyways, just my opinions… I for one choose to trust in science (its the closest thing we have to actually understanding anything) and to live a happy life..
if religion is so awesome, then why does it make people do stupid things or feel miserable? hell with that, its all lies.
Comment by Andy— 26 August, 2006 #
lawl.
hydra
do you not see the irony in what you have just said?
Comment by Lawl— 26 August, 2006 #
lol ya hydra haha
Comment by The stinky cheese man says— 26 August, 2006 #
oh and to all those who think christains are “brainwashed” you should refrain from having children lest you eat them when your goverment assistance checks stop coming in the mail.
Comment by The stinky cheese man says— 26 August, 2006 #
Oh and from reading poop dogg’s post half the world is starving eh? ever notice that christain founded nations or nations that were once a theocracy are the ones that advanced substantially then the heathen ones? half the world is starving because we humans are flawed not god. if youve even stepped into a church you would have known that
-Fuckin Idiot
Comment by The stinky cheese man says— 26 August, 2006 #
Most atheists assume that religious people are blinded by religion – that they are incapable or at least unwilling to think ‘rationally’ – the truth is religion plays different roles to different people – I mean some of the greatest philosophers and thinkers were theologians – but anyway – let me ask you a question – how do you know to trust rational thought as a way to determine the truth as opposed to blind belief – how can you know that one is better than the other?? Before you rush in and say I’m retarded just think about it..
Comment by Henry VIII— 26 August, 2006 #
rp.mad “we have a cell ….what the blazes animated it, life cannot arise from dead matter”
What the blazes animated animated god, but hey we can’t defend our belief lets call it the missing link or just ignore it all together.
I like to waste my time writing huge ass illogical paragraphs too:)
Comment by Yarg— 26 August, 2006 #
Funny how his little short writting was based on no facts what so ever. Just someone typing away at a keyboard not doing any research. Funny shit. Not all christians are the same. For example me; i believe in god and i take it true to my heart…but i go to church every sunday high. if someone can prove to me that im doing wrong, let them. its fun and i listen more and get more into it. i even gone to chuch on meth. does that make me a bad person. christians arn’t what you think they are. what you are refering to are the hardcore christians that dont even know what they believe. its sad but all in all…well i forgot where my point was going…
Comment by lain— 26 August, 2006 #
“…well i forgot where my point was going…”
…. Point? Put the pipe down slowly, and walk to the nearest rehab clinic.
Comment by Elohim— 26 August, 2006 #
Blame god for the unbelievers. Helloed are the Ori.
Doesn’t matter if God exists. I get on with life just fine thanks.
Comment by Bob— 26 August, 2006 #
Iain your are an idiot I dont know what you are trying to accomplish by by stating you go to church on meth. You represent everything that is wrong with the world- The degenarating state of civilization.
Right on you jackass
Comment by The stinky cheese man says— 26 August, 2006 #
Religion is fabricated to explain what people don’t understand. Religion provides a security blanket for those who are too afraid to face things on their own two feet. Religion is the “easy” way out. I think it’s important to believe in something though, furthermore, I believe it’s essential to our existence. However, if there will be an end to our existence, I believe religion will be where it stems.
I believe in science… I believe science will take a long time to evolve before we can explain everything, but sooner or later, we as a race will get there, if we don’t kill each other off in the name of God first.
Logically, religion just doesn’t make sense. It divides us, it destroys us, and will always be a subject of eternally heated debate. We’ll never agree, and we’ll never get anywhere because of it. It’s slowing our evolution as human beings.
If there is a God, I absolutely hate him.
Ok guys, flame away!
Comment by anonymous— 26 August, 2006 #
I dont know about you guys but I think doing whatever God wants us to is more than worth an eternity in Heaven. Lifes not supposed to be full of happiness and pleasure. He dosnt even really ask for alot. I mean, he dosnt FORCE you to worship him, he dosnt FORCE you to not commit sin. Its just not what he wants. He gave us free-will and all we do is abuse it. If anything, going to church is the least we could do for God. For those who dont beleive in God than ignore everything I just said but really its not worth burning in Hell for.
Comment by za— 26 August, 2006 #
Very well stated anonymous. My hat’s off to you.
Amen.
Comment by Elohim— 26 August, 2006 #
@ za
If your god wants to burn me in hell for eternity because I use my rational thought that he endowed me with. Then let him.
Comment by Elohim— 26 August, 2006 #
How could you say such a thing, I’m a Lutheran and I’m appalled at this article! Of course God exists! Otherwise, who the fuck gave me that slurpee at Seven Eleven? Oh, maybe his name tag said Jesus. If that bum in the sky existed shouldn’t he be smiting us yet? It’s more likely God is an alien from forever ago if anything at all. I’ve been too church like twice, one was for a wedding, second was some gay sunday service bullshit when I was a little kid since we were visiting my grand parents. Never read the bible, it’s just a made up story book, a boring one too.
Comment by DrJakal— 26 August, 2006 #
To anonymous: as cheesy as it may sound, Christianity is less of a religion but more of your relationship with God. I dont know what your talking about when you say the “easy way out,” being a christian dosnt mean being happy all the time and its not something that you can use as an excuse for peace. Shit happens to everyone, we cant help it and even christians get pissed when something dosnt go their way, its all part of being human. Christianity is most definatly not the “easy way out.”
I know I cant change the way you think about God but I hope that in sometime in your life you’ll change your mind.
Comment by za— 26 August, 2006 #
Elohim, God dosnt want you to burn in hell, why would he? God dosnt hate, people just think he does because he dosnt stop anything bad from happening but really its our own damned fault that we’re going through all this crap. We cant just expect God to save our asses everytime something bad happens. That would make life too easy. We shouldnt blame God for all the bad things that happen to us in life because we cant expect life to be easy. He literally gives us a choice to go to Heaven or to Hell and he dosnt really ask for much in return.
Comment by za— 26 August, 2006 #
Obviously Samantha has never been to my grandma’s pentacostal church. They run down other churches, are the most judgemental hypocrites I’ve ever met and marry the girls off at 13+. I am an atheist and proud of it. I have been fired from jobs for being one by judgemental holyrollers who think atheists are scum when the truth is I live their religion better than they do without trying. The bottom line is one can talk all the bs they want about God, heaven, hell, afterlife, but the only way one is knowing where he or she is going when they die is when they get there.
Comment by KoldKen— 26 August, 2006 #
I’ll paypal $30 to anyone who can come up with more supported evidence for god than against him. And none of the “Evidence for evolution is actually evidence against evolution because god put it there to fool us” bullshit.
Comment by Pox— 26 August, 2006 #
Fuck god…
Comment by Die Hard— 26 August, 2006 #
HAVE A FUCKING SENSE OF HUMOUR… ALL OF YOU… (if you’re Christian then leave)
And explain where the fuck my grammAr is wrong???????
Comment by junaman— 26 August, 2006 #
And no….. I DO NOT FUCKING MEAN RASTAFARIAN YOU IDIOT….
Pastafarians believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster
http://www.venganza.org/
n0000000000000000000000b
Comment by junaman— 26 August, 2006 #
There is no god.
All you religious freaks, here ya go. Let me know when you have some answers.
Thecandyrapper@yahoo.com
The Hierophant’s Proselytizer Questionnaire
0. If necessary, use this space to explain any unique beliefs your sect has about the nature of your god, heaven, hell, the Bible, the Holy Spirit/Ghost, Satan, etc.
1. Explain why your god’s only son had to die so we can go to magic happy land when we croak.
2. Did everyone who died before Jesus died go to Hell? Justify your answer.
3. If a Catholic, justify the Inquisition and other persecutions of “heretics” throughout the centuries, concentrating on why the Pelagianists, the Priscillianists, and the Manichaeans were persecuted; if a Protestant, justify the witch trials and the way that Protestants constantly hunted down native Americans until there were so few that the government could simply take their land; if a member of an Eastern Orthodox church, justify the persecutions of the Old Believers after the reforms of the seventeenth century.
4. Explain why your sect (whether Catholic, Protestant, or Eastern Orthodox) pursued, tortured, and killed people who were not Christian.
5. Explain why your sect (whether Catholic, Protestant, or Eastern Orthodox) pursued, tortured, and killed people who were not members of your particular sect.
6. Explain why I should believe that your god is all-good when the only real information we have about him is the Bible, which clearly describes him as both good and evil. (See Isaiah 30:32, Luke 14:26, Numbers 31:17-18, Matthew 10:34, Amos 3:6, Deuteronomy 18:8, Deuteronomy 20:16, Exodus 20:5, Exodus 32:27, Isaiah 45:7, Psalms 52:5, Luke 22:36, and Jeremiah 18:11 for a small sample of Biblical passages which describe Jehovah as having an evil morality at times).
7. Explain why, when racism is clearly wrong, Jesus was clearly a racist (see Mark 7:25-29). NOTE: under no circumstances will I believe the idea that racism is morally acceptable.
8. Explain why, when discrimination against women is clearly wrong, the Bible clearly supports the oppression of women. Answering this question entails refuting 1 Cor 11 and 1 Tim 2:11-15. NOTE: under no circumstances will I believe that discrimination against women solely on the basis of sex is morally acceptable.
9. Explain why, when slavery is clearly wrong, the Bible clearly supports slavery. Answering this question entails refuting 1 Peter 2:18. NOTE: under no circumstances will I believe that slavery is an acceptable way to run a society.
10. Explain why children should submit to their parents’ decisions even when those decisions are clearly evil. Answering this question entails refuting Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Proverbs 13:24, and Hebrews 12:7-8.
11. Explain why, if your god loves us all, more than half of us are going to Hell after we die. Specifically, refute or explain the following words of Christ, as presented in the New Testament: “Many are called but few are chosen,” and “Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way that leadeth unto salvation, and few there be that find it.” If your god loves all of us, couldn’t he find a better way?
12. Explain what type of offense could possibly justify eternal, unbearable torture in Hell; if your sect does not believe in Hell, then refute every passage in the Old and New Testaments which describes Hell (such as 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 and Revelation 20:15). Do not exceed 100 words.
13. Explain how your god can be both just and merciful, when these terms apparently contradict each other.
14. Explain why possession by demons and/or other evil spirits was common during the time of Jesus, but hardly mentioned in the Old Testament, and apparently has been explained completely away today by things such as epilepsy and schizophrenia.
15. Explain why, if the personality resides in the soul, things like drugs and brain damage can affect someone’s personality.
16. If heaven is a place where everyone is perfectly happy, then explain how I could be happy in heaven if I had loved ones in Hell.
17. What is Heaven like?
18. What is Hell like?
19. Explain why original sin exists. Why should I be eternally tortured for something that a pair of naked fruit-munching simpletons did in a garden over six thousand years ago? If you believe that children are born stained because they were conceived sexually, explain why I would be punished for something my parents did by your merciful and just god. If this does not apply to your sect, explain why.
20. Explain why getting dunked in or sprinkled with water will prevent me from being eternally tortured for the actions of the naked fruit-munching simpletons mentioned in #19.
21. If your god did not want Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, why did he put the tree in the garden of Eden (and at the center, no less)? Was it for shade? If so, why use something so dangerous as a shade tree? If the purpose of the tree was to tempt Adam and Eve, explain why it’s OK for your god to engage in a practice that our modern-day courts of law refer to as “entrapment.”
22. Explain why sex, potentially one of the most wonderful, beautiful things in human nature, is considered “bad” by your particular sect. If your sect does not consider sex to be “bad,” then refute Matthew 19:12, 1 Corinthians 7 (particularly verses 1 and 9), Galatians 5:17, 1 Thessalonians 4:3, James 1:14-15, Matthew 24:38, Luke 17:27, and Revelation 14:4.
23. Explain why, if Jesus was perfect, he thought that the end of the world was coming soon, when it has clearly not come yet. See Matthew 16:27-28.
24. Explain why some people (James, Peter, Paul, Thomas, etc.) should get convincing physical proof of miracles, while the rest of us are supposed to take these happenings on faith.
25. Why are the stories of the resurrection inconsistent?
26. If you are a Protestant or a member of an Eastern Orthodox church, explain why you are still using the Catholic Bible, which was formalized by a vote among (supposedly divinely inspired) cardinals and bishops in the fourth century CE, when you disagree with the idea that the Pope, who is higher in the Catholic hierarchy, is divinely inspired; if a Catholic, explain why your church accepts the canonical Bible while rejecting the Apocrypha (do not use the “divinely inspired” argument: Because I am not religious, I will not be able to accept it).
27. If your god is kind and gentle, why do some animals have to eat meat?
28. If your god is kind and gentle, why did he create parasites?
29. If your god wants us to worship him through our own free will, why does he threaten us with Hell? If you have someone threatening you with a punishment, it isn’t free will.
30. Why would your god deliberately cause sinners to sin (cf. Romans 9:15-23 and numerous parts of the book of Exodus where Jehovah says, “I will harden Pharaoh’s heart.”). Are these sinners still responsible for the sins which your god forces them, against their will, to commit? Justify your answer.
31. If Jesus did have to die, why did someone (specifically, Judas) have to be damned in order accomplish the death and resurrection of Jesus? Jesus was at least a volunteer for the cross; I doubt that your god asked Judas if he was willing to go to Hell so that the resurrection could be accomplished.
32. If Judas was willing to go to Hell for humanity (see #31), didn’t he make more of a sacrifice than Jesus, who spent only three hours in pain? Shouldn’t we then be worshipping Judas?
33. Why should we accept the words of the gospel writers as truth when they are known to be liars? (See Romans 3:7).
34. Do you believe that your god is anti-homosexual? If so, explain why he would create homosexuals in the first place. If not, refute or explain away Leviticus 20:13 and Romans 1:26-27.
35. Explain why prayer is OK, but spell casting is not, when both amount to the same thing: requesting that a superior supernatural force to intercede in a way that would be impossible according to the normally accepted laws of physics.
36. According to the Gospels, from the Christian standpoint, Jesus was the most important person to ever live. From the Roman standpoint, Jesus was a huge pain in the ass because of his political activities. Explain why nothing was written about his life for over thirty years after his death, and nothing except the Gospels was written until the third century CE.
37. Explain why you believe a person whose life is so poorly documented (see #36) was even ever born.
38. Define the word “Christ,” including references to the pagan origins and meaning of the word.
39. Explain why Jesus, who was anti-Gentile (see Mark 7:25-29) and anti-sex (see Luke 14:26 and Matthew 19:12), would want to be anointed with oil in a pagan sexual rite after his death (see your definition for #38).
40. In light of Matthew 10:34, explain why Jesus is called the Prince of Peace.
41. The name “Jesus” has been anglicized. What was the original (Hebrew) name of Jesus? Where did you get this information? This is a bonus question.
42. Why is it that the life of Jesus was so similar to the lives of pagan Christs, particularly Herakles, Dionysios, and Asklepios?
43. If your god requires that people believe in him and follow his orders through their own free will, why do Christians push their views on public policy?
44. Explain why being a good Christian requires you to push your beliefs on others. If you do not believe that you have to push your views on others (no matter how much this annoys them), explain why you do not believe this despite the fact that the New Testament seems to suggest that you must do this to get to Heaven (for instance, in Matthew 28:19-20).
45. Explain why spreading the “truth of Christ” requires you to spread lies about other religions, such as the idea that Wiccans (so-called “white witches”) worship the Christian devil. (Incidentally, they don’t, and this rumor has been persistently spread by Christians since the second century CE).
46. At no point in the four Gospels did Jesus claim to be the son of your god. (He said “son of man” quite frequently, and at one point referred to himself as “a son of god,” but that was a common Hebrew expression at the time. Someone who was “a son of god” was a Jew. This reflected the Israelites’ belief that they were the chosen people of your god. See Job 1:6). Why, then, do you believe that Jesus was divine? If you don’t believe that Jesus was divine, then why do you call yourself a Christian?
47. Given the fact that Jesus did not say anything original (the Golden Rule and the “turn the other cheek” idea were stolen from Buddhism; and the Beatitudes were common in the Jewish devotional literature at the time), why do you see Jesus as such a great thinker/philosopher/ethicist?
48. When Jesus said, “Resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also,” why do you suppose that most Christians fight for their rights? To put it another way, why don’t we, as a country of 85% Christians, let the government abuse us?
49. Why are so many Christian holidays on the same day as Pagan holidays? Couldn’t the early Church fathers have converted pagans only by appealing to their reason and/or faith if Christianity is the true religion?
50. Explain how your god can be “just and merciful” in light of Exodus 20:5.
51. Do you believe that the Old Testament should be accepted as part of Christian theology? If so, explain how you can worship such a cruel, sadistic asshole (see Numbers 31:17-18, Deuteronomy 20:16, Proverbs 20:30, Amos 3:6, Deuteronomy 13:8, Psalms 3:7, Psalms 52:5, etc.); if not, explain how you can believe that Jesus is the promised savior sent by your god without the messianic prophecies and the ruling rights of the line of David, both of which are in the Old Testament in books such as Isaiah, Zechariah, Daniel, Psalms, etc. (as opposed to, say, believing that Jesus was an irritating nut wandering around saying things that people didn’t like much).
52. Explain why your “just and merciful” god sent bears to kill forty-two children who called his prophet Elisha “baldhead.” (See 2 Kings 2:23-24).
53. If prostitution is wrong, why are there so many examples of it in Genesis? (For instance, Gen 19:8, where Lot offers his daughters to a mob so that his guests can avoid gang rape).
54. What is the sin that people committed that is so incredibly bad that your god had to become flesh and die to correct?
55. Are all members of other faiths bad? Are they all damned to Hell? Justify your answer with quotes from the Bible.
56. Are all atheists/agnostics/humanists bad? Are they all damned to Hell? Justify your answer with quotes from the Bible.
57. What was your motive in proselytizing to me?
58. Where is Heaven?
59. Where is Hell?
60. Why don’t animals go to heaven or hell when they die? What makes us so special?
61. Why does Satan try to get peoples’ souls?
62. Once Satan has someone’s soul, what does he do with it?
63. Is your god perfect? Justify your answer.
64. Where does our soul stay while we are alive?
65. Explain how you can believe in Satan when your faith is directly descended from the Jewish faith, when the Jews did not even believe in Satan until they absorbed the Egyptian god Set while they were captives in Egypt.
66. Why do evil people often prosper? Justify your answer.
67. Why do good people so often fail to prosper? Justify your answer.
68. When the end of the world comes, will your god raise our actual bodies, or just our souls? Explain.
69. Explain why your god lets airplanes with sinless infants on board crash.
70. What is sin, exactly?
71. If Jesus is perfect, justify the parable of the fig tree (Matthew 21:17-19, Mark 11:14-20).
72. Explain why Christians have harassed Wiccans (“white witches”) for almost two thousand years now, when the central rule of the Wiccan ethical system is “an it harm no one, do what thou wilt.”
73. Explain why Christians (yes, that includes all branches of Christianity) have spread the lie that Jews put Jesus to death when, in actuality, it was the Romans who put Jesus to death. (For a good example of New Testament anti-semetism, see 1 Thessalonians 2:15).
74. Explain why your god created humans as imperfect, then set his standards so high that no one could possibly live up to them, then punishes us for not living up to his standards. Doesn’t this also constitute “entrapment?”
75. If we are created in your god’s image and likeness (Gen 1:27), how can we also be imperfect?
76. Why was it OK for the ancient Israelites to sacrifice animals to their god, while it is wrong for modern religions to sacrifice animals to their gods? Justify your answer.
77. Why would your god confuse people? (See 1 Sam 7:10 and Gen 11:9). Isn’t life confusing enough already?
78. Why would your god cause blindness, deafness, and dumbness? (See Ex 4:11)
79. Why would your god want to damn people by making them believe false things? (See 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).
80. Should the book of Revelation be taken literally? Explain your answer.
81. Would it be good for men to castrate themselves? Justify your answer, taking Matthew 19:12 into account.
82. What exactly is faith?
83. All of the various Christian sects ignore parts of the Bible, usually because those parts of the Bible are inconvenient. Explain which parts of the Bible your sect ignores, and explain why it is OK to ignore those parts of the Bible.
84. Why did your god allow Satan to do evil things to Job (Job 2:7 etc.)? Wouldn’t your god better spend his time punishing unbelievers?
85. If Jesus and his father are one (John 10:30), then why does Jesus have to pray (i.e. Matthew 26:39)?
86. Explain your belief in heaven in light of Job 7:9 and Ecclesiastes 9:5.
87. Christ giving himself up on the cross was a great gesture, true, but wouldn’t it have been more sensible for him to continue spreading his message until he died a natural death? Answer this question in light of your answer to question #1.
88. What is your interpretation of the temptation of Christ by Satan in the desert (Matthew 4:5-8, Luke 4:5-9)?
89. In view of Matthew 6:5-6, shouldn’t prayer in public schools be discouraged? Support your answer with scripture quotes.
90. Do you feel that the last words of Christ were significant? If so, why do the four gospels attribute three different sentences to Christ as his last? (Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34: “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?”; Luke 23:46: “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit”; John 19:30: “It is finished”).
91. Matthew and Mark say that the last words of Christ were, in Hebrew, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” This has traditionally been translated as, “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?” However, a more accurate translation would be, “My El, My El, why has thou forsaken me?” El is the name of a specific pagan god. Why would Jesus call out to a pagan god at the moment of his death?
92. A commonly recited litany in many forms of Christianity is “The LORD is my shepherd.” (Psalm 23:1). Given the fact that the only reasons that people raise sheep are to rob them of their clothes and to kill them for meat, and the fact that sheep will often follow the shepherd to their destruction, do you think that this is any appropriate image for your god? Justify your answer.
93. Why is the theory of the big bang any more (or less) likely that the idea that your god created the universe? Justify your answer. NOTE: I admit that science has not explained where the original supercondensed particle came from, but no one has ever explained where your god came from, either.
94. If your god is everywhere at the same time, and hell is the absence of (or separation from) your god, how can he be omnipresent?
95. In the Genesis story, your god tells Adam and Eve that the day they eat from the tree of knowledge they will surely die (Gen 2:17). The devil tells them that they will not die, but that their eyes would be opened and they would know the difference between good and evil (Gen 3:5). Wasn’t Satan telling the truth here? Is your god a liar? Justify your answer in light of Jeremiah 20:7 and Ezekiel 14:9.
96. If Lucifer is not as powerful as your god, then he cannot possibly be omnipresent. How could he possibly get as many followers as you seem to think he has?
97. The Bible constantly describes your god as male. In view of the fact that your god supposedly created everything, and creation is very much a female function, isn’t this at least a little bit absurd? Justify your answer.
98. In light of the Trinity, angels, the Virgin Mary, etc., isn’t Christianity polytheistic? If the Trinity is three who are one, why the three names? Justify your answer.
99. Have you read the entire Bible? If not, how can you be devoted enough to try and convert me to a religion that you don’t know that much about? Isn’t knowing as much as possible about something necessary to understanding it? Isn’t understanding something necessary to being completely devoted to it?
100. Why is 2 Kings 19 exactly identical to Isaiah 37?
101. Is Jesus’s three days in Hell really an ultimate sacrifice, when more than half of humanity going to spend eternity there (see question #11)?
102. If your sect considers the King James Bible to be the official and/or authoritative translation, justify this in light of the fact that when King James commissioned his translation to be poetic rather than accurate. How can you possibly use an inaccurate translation as your reference for what is/is not the word of your god? If your sect does not use the King James Bible, what translation do they use? Justify the use of that particular translation.
103. Assume that I do not believe that Jesus died for my sins, or that if he did, that necessarily means I will go to your heaven. Name one thing that Jesus ever did for me.
104. Before Mary was knocked up by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, she was never asked for her consent. (She was warned; see Luke 1:31). Mary was also asleep when your god knocked her up; this strongly suggests that he didn’t want her to protest. Does this mean that Mary was raped by your god? Do you think rape is wrong? Explain.
105. According to Luke, Mary knew that she was pregnant with the Messiah. Living in the times she lived in, she must have known the scripture; therefore, she must have known that he would have to suffer horribly during his life. Was it moral for Mary to carry her baby to term, or would it have been more humane for her to have an abortion? Explain.
106. If it was foretold that Jesus was to be crucified, and if he knew this, and if he was the son of your god, why did he do everything he could to avoid being crucified? (See, for instance, Matthew 26:39).
107. If the Holy Spirit/Ghost is the father of Jesus (Luke 1:35), then why is the central figure of your trinity called God the Father?
108. Mary and Jehovah were never joined in wedlock. Does it bother you that Jesus is technically a bastard?
109. The original Hebrew word for the Holy Ghost/Spirit includes the idea that the Holy Spirit/Ghost is female in gender. Isn’t this rather silly when you consider the fact that the Holy Ghost/Spirit is actually the father of Jesus (Luke 1:35)?
110. Matthew 28:11-15 contains an account of a conspiracy between the Jews and the Roman soldiers to spread the story that the disciples stole the body of Christ. How could Matthew have known about this, since no Jews or Romans would have admitted to it? If it was such a transparent conspiracy that an outsider could have seen it, why didn’t the other three gospels mention it? Why didn’t the Roman soldiers get into trouble?
111. Jews believe that people are basically good people and can work to overcome their sinful tendencies. Most Christian sects, following the teaching of Psalm 51:5, 1 Kings 8:46, Ezekiel 18:4, Isaiah 59:2, and Psalm 143:2, believe that people are completely debased and hopelessly lost in sin, and that only your god can lift us out of this state if he decides to bestow his gift of grace on us? Isn’t this an incredibly negative view of people? Isn’t Judaism a more mature faith just for this reason?
112. How do you, as an individual, feel about Psalm 51:5?
113. What does your sect teach about Psalm 51:5 (and 1 Kings 8:46, etc.), predestination, and similar matters?
114. Don’t you think that the idea that no matter what we do, we can never be good and righteous without help from your god (Isaiah 64:6) fosters an unnatural and unhealthy dependency on him?
115. Revelation 22:16 says that Jesus is the “offspring of David.” Mary was not descended from David, but Joseph was. Doesn’t this mean that Jesus wasn’t the son of your god at all, but the (mortal and not divine) son of Joseph?
116. What would the correct thing to do be if your god gave you a command that was harmful and/or destructive to you? A common argument, which comes from Paul, states that because clay pots don’t complain about what the potter does with them, people shouldn’t complain about what their maker (supposedly, your god) does with them, but this completely ignores the vitally important argument that clay pots have no sense of self-awareness and cannot think or feel love, pain, anger, etc. If you want to make this argument, you have to deal with this difference.
117. What (or who) does your sect believe the number 666 represents? Justify your answer.
118. If your god is “just and merciful,” why would he take Solomon’s kingdom away from Solomon’s son while not punishing Solomon, when it was Solomon himself who committed the sin of idolatry? What did Solomon’s son do to deserve punishment? (See 1 Kings 11:12).
119. Why is Solomon commonly considered to be the paragon of wisdom by many Christians, when he constantly sinned against your god (1 Kings 11:4-10, etc.)? Personally, if I had a god talking to me, I’d do what he said.
120. Don’t you think that an anti-sex position (see question #22) is a rather silly position for your sect to take when the biblical book “Song of Solomon” is a piece of erotic poetry? (For instance, in Song of Solomon 8:2, the bridegroom proposes to “drink of spiced wine of the juice of the pomegranate.” The pomegranate was a symbol of the female genitalia, and the “spiced wine” represented menstrual blood).
121. Does it bother you that the cross, supposedly a Christian symbol, was actually stolen from the Egyptians? Why or why not? (The Egyptian cross, the ankh, was a male-female symbol similar in concept to the yin-yang. When the Christians stole the ankh from the Egyptians, they removed the female symbol, or yoni, leaving only the masculine symbol– a subtle way of reinforcing the idea that women are lesser beings).
122. How do you explain that Christians are twice as likely to have sadomasochistic tendencies as non-christians?
123. What is the incredibly important doctrinal difference that requires the fighting between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland?
124. Even if your god did create the universe, why does he want to be worshipped? Is your god an egomaniac?
125. What are your beliefs concerning Wicca? (“white witchcraft”). How much do you know about Wicca?
126. What do you think the word “Satanist” means?
127. How do you explain the fact that the word “blood” occurs over 400 times in the Bible? Isn’t this a rather savage way to write a book that is supposed to be at the center of an ethical system?
128. Throughout the Bible, your god commands his followers to wage merciless war on unbelievers (Luke 22:36, Deuteronomy 13:8, Exodus 20:23-25, Deuteronomy 20:16, Matthew 10:34, Numbers 31:17-18, etc). If you are one of his followers, why aren’t you out waging merciless war on unbelievers?
129. Numbers 23:21 says that your god “has not seen wickedness in Israel.” If this is so, explain why your god burned Israelites for complaining (Num 11:1), sent a plague against them for eating the meat he had given them (Num 11:33), why he burned people for using incense (Num 16:35), why he sent a plague against the Israelites who accused Moses of wrongdoing (Num 16:44-49), and why he sent fiery snakes among the Israelites (Num 21:5). Is your god a liar, or was it just more convenient for him to lie at that particular place and time, or what?
130. What was it that was so bad about eating an apple that death had to result from that act?
131. What was it about humanity’s torturing and killing of your god’s only son that made your god so happy that he again promised eternal life to everyone who believed in him.
132. How do you explain that Matthew and Luke give different genealogies for Jesus?
133. Matthew says that the prophecy given in Matthew 27:9 was given by Jeremiah. How do you explain that this prophecy was not given by Jeremiah at all, but by Zechariah (in Zech 11:12)?
134. Matthew says (in Matt 2:21) that Jesus dealt in Nazareth so that he could fulfill a prophecy stating that the Messiah would be called a Nazarene. Where is this prophecy in the Old Testament?
135. Matthew says that on the triumphant entry into Jerusalem, Jesus was riding on an ass and a colt (Matt 21:7). How do you explain that the original prophecy (Zech 9:9) stated that Jesus would be riding on only one ass, and the other gospel writers place Jesus only on one ass (Mark 11:7, Luke 19:35, and John 12:15)?
136. In Matthew 1:23, Matthew has the angel say that Jesus would be born of a virgin. However, the prophecy that Matthew is referring to, Isaiah 7:14, uses the Hebrew word almah, which simply means a young woman. It has nothing to do with sexual purity; the Hebrew word for virgin is bethulah. How do you explain this?
137. Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Where is the fulfillment of this prophecy in the New Testament?
138. Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus would be called Immanuel, which means “God with us.” Why does no one (not even his parents) call him Immanuel at any point in the New Testament?
139. How many inconsistencies in the Bible, other than those mentioned in this paper, do you know of? Cite chapter and verse for as many as you have room for.
140. If even the contemplation of sinning is a sin (i.e. “sinning in your heart”; see, for example, Matthew 5:28) and if Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert (Matthew 4:5-8, Luke 4:5-9), how can you say that Jesus was without sin?
141. Does your sect believe that the existence of your god can be established through a formal proof? Why or why not?
142. Pick a famous argument for the existence of your god, then criticize that argument. (Assume I mean for you to use the academic definition of criticize).
143. Pick an argument against the existence of your god. If it is not a famous argument, copy it down here. Criticize this argument. (Assume I mean for you to use the academic definition of the word criticize).
144. What does your sect think of the government? Read Paul’s letter to the Romans, chapter 13. Now what do you think of the government? If necessary, reconcile the two views.
145. What is your definition of the word Christian?
146. Why do you think it is that the ancient Greeks, who had a very liberal sexual morality, had many fewer sex crimes (compared to the population) than the United States, which is 85% Christian?
147. If someone accepts Jesus, and is “saved,” but then turns away from Jesus, is that person still saved?
148. Where did your god come from?
149. What are the requirements for being saved? Some sects says that faith alone is enough; others say that faith without works is dead. The Bible supports both these viewpoints. What does your sect think?
Comment by opz. Candy— 26 August, 2006 #
@ Samantha, I have spoken to Christians about why they go to Church and their reply is: to meet other Christians. It is as though they are elitist.
It is important to bash god, and rant about the incorrectness of his teachings, because they have led to many millions of deaths, and continue to do so…..
That’s the point.
Regarding scientists believing in a god: there is nothing wrong with that unless that god is Christian, Jewish, Muslim or any other organised religion’s (except pastafarianism)
Isn’t it funny how so many Christians go out of their way just to prove my point? YOU GOD TAUGHT YOU NOT TO JUDGE. To love everyone, and to be nice to people…. why must you ignore that part of the bible?
sorry, but you are all going to hell….
Comment by junaman— 26 August, 2006 #
“For those who dont beleive in God than ignore everything I just said but really its not worth burning in Hell for.”
——————————-
My rational thought tells me that there isn’t a god, at least not in the sense that it’s being discussed in this forum. If there is a creator, call him/them god (this obviously being my opinion / belief / deduction), he doesn’t care whether we accept him, have faith in him, and he doesn’t even care what I’m typing right now. If there is a creator with some sort of magical omnipotent power to judge me and know if I’m a good human being or not, this god wants me to do the opposite of just about everything that’s written in the bible. If you have any questions as to what I’m referring to by ‘what’s written in the bible,’ try reading the book. (This is a blanket statement, I’m just citing the bible right now because, well that’s what’s being discussed.) Hate as the original author talked about wouldn’t come from such an omnipotent creator. I don’t need to accept anything or believe any which way to be saved if places like “heaven” and “hell” really do exist. I just need to be a decent human being, that’s all. Belief and/or worship of a creator/god is not fundamental. Try proving that it is.
There is no proof that god exists,,,, it’s also equally true that there is no proof that he does not exist. The most any of us can HONESTLY say is that we don’t know, springing the whole concept of faith (belief that does not rest on material evidence).
I have to agree with the author, if god exists, does it really matter? My logic tells me no, so I’m not going to worry about it. Everyone else can do whatever they please or whatever makes them happy. I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything, I just don’t have anything better to do with my time right now than type crap about philosophical questions on a web blog. I’m done now though, I’m tired and I’m going to sleep. If I made grammatical or spelling errors I’m sure the grammar trolls will point them out, but I’m not going to spend the time proof reading this worthless crap that I just typed up. If anyone has something to say trying to convince me one way or the other, or wants to point out my own blatant contradictions than go ahead, we’re not even on the same playing field. I can contradict myself if I want to, that’s really the only point I’ve expressed. It really doesn’t matter one way or the other. If god exists, belief in him does not matter.
Comment by Elohim— 26 August, 2006 #
God is old news. Take this for example. Millions of children across the globe believe in Santa Claus. We know for a fact that this fat red guy can’t possibly exist. Children believe this lie for some time until they become wiser and understand that logically he cannot exist. If you compare that fairy tale to religion you may come to the conclusion that it is the exact same scenario.
God does not need to exist anymore. We can explain, maybe a bit simply, how some things work in the universe. Why do we need gods anymore? What purpose do they serve? None. I believe the poster “anonymous” put it in perfect perspective. How the hell are we as a species going to evolve further mentally and physically when there is still fiction in use as fact?
Take all the thousands of years of destruction and death caused by various religious beliefs into account and see what devastating effects religion has had on society. Sheep is the perfect definition for the blind that still sing religion’s praises. These people cannot function without a divine force guiding their miserable existence. There is much more to learn than outdated theological nonsense.
The only proof these tools have that their beloved god exists is a human written book,millions of followers, and the statement that god is real. Evidence? Not in the least.
People need to face reality and open their minds to the endless possibilities there are. We conceived gods in our humanistic infancy and slowly we are aging as a species and if you notice there are alot more non believers than there were years ago. Want to know why? Because people are waking up.
God is a dream, a sad uncreative dream. Nothing more.
Also I’d like to point out this goes for all gods currently being worshipped. Though Christianity seems to be at the forefront of the controversy since more sheep subcribe to it.
Comment by TVX— 26 August, 2006 #
@ Elohim
“There is no proof that god exists,,,, it’s also equally true that there is no proof that he does not exist.”
There is no proof that there an invisible unicorn on pluto does not exist.
The burden of proof is on the theists to prove his existence.
Other than that, very well written.
Comment by junaman— 26 August, 2006 #
i would just like to know when the “comical” article on Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Chinese folk religions, Pagans, Sikhism, Juche, Spiritism, Judaism, Bahá’í Faith, Jainism, Shinto, Cao Dai, Zoroastrianism, Neo-Paganism and Unitarian Universalism?
Why not mention them? You say you hate all religions! Or is it that you just hate Christians?
Well you know what that is, thats racism, and where i live in the understanding US of A, we wouldnt have this bs
Thank god your not in New York
Comment by Sandra Jones— 26 August, 2006 #
By the way, I’m not sure if you’ve realised, but Pox has said something that no one yet has replied to. I think you should wake up and realise that god (yes, you don’t need to spell the word like God or G-d) DOES NOT EXIST. Junaman has very valid points. And Pastafarianism is much more plausible than christianity. Even Frisbeeterianism (NOT Presbyterianism) is.
Comment by zomgmouse— 26 August, 2006 #
Oh and by the way you’ve skipped omnivorous and OMNIFOGYBOX.
Comment by zomgmouse— 26 August, 2006 #
@ “Sandra Jones”
Christianity is the biggest religion with more than double (allegedly) members than the next largest.
Also, it is the largest religion of the world’s most powerful country and most western countries, therefore giving it the resources to advertise itself, evangelise, spread its word. And as a result your religion is the one that attempts to convert non-believers more than all others by a long margin. I have never seen a Muslim televangelist. Some religions just don’t have the financial strength, influence and resources to promote themselves. I have more respect for these than Christianity.
@ opz. Candy
Nice comment
Do you mind if I use that on my site?
Comment by junaman— 26 August, 2006 #
All of you seem to forget…God gave us free reason, to think and do as we wanted…he was just hoping we would be smart enough to realize that…oh well
Comment by Rob— 26 August, 2006 #
Except you seem to forget that he is also omniscient… which is mutually exclusive to us having free will….
Also god tempts us into believing in him by threatening us with hell… that is called entrapment…
Comment by junaman— 26 August, 2006 #
Henery VVVI said something I toatally agree with that noone has replied to yet. So you really think that logic, a brain function that evolved so that we could kill more food, surivive better and have more sex, can help you answer one of the most fundamental questions of the universe? And if it can, why logic and not emotion, after all, the only reason to believe in logic is because its logical, which is rather like the bible. Now I agree it definatly make more sense to use logic than just belive whatever your told like many of the people here seem to do but if you really think that you know for sure that god doesnt exist or that it doesnt matter you are pretty close minded and un aware of your own insignificance.
Comment by plectrum— 26 August, 2006 #
What will our knowledge of god’s existance change? How will it be significant?
The reason to use logical thought rather than blind belief or emotion is because the latter has led to a lot more wars, deaths, torture, segregations, ostracisations, inquisitions etc……
Comment by junaman— 26 August, 2006 #
no, thats just human nature. Buddism is not nessiserally a logical religion although it has caused no wars and many of its claims have been scientifically proved.
Comment by plectrum— 26 August, 2006 #
Firstly, I have utmosr respect for Buddhism, although they do not believe in a deity as such, and hence are more logical than the rest.
However, when you say “scientifically proven” you refer to them being proven using logical thought… and that is what makes it credible in your mind….:)
God does not exist, so human nature is all there is… war is started by emotion and blind belief, not rational, logical thought.
Logical thought does not approve of killing people…
Comment by junaman— 26 August, 2006 #
Elohim on August 26th, 2006
“…. Point? Put the pipe down slowly, and walk to the nearest rehab clinic.”
LOL rehab?! Thats for people that are addited…and i dont think they have a rehab for people on weed. Only ones where the kids parents send them cause they think it works. Organic drugs are the safest drugs; you cant overdose, and when you do it doesnt cause death. I have never heard of someone that sold there house,car,lost their family friends over weed. no one has ever died from it. it helps fight against many of the different lung cancers that are out there. I can give you all the facts you want…the only thing you could come back with is, “its illigal.” Yes it is…but give it a few years maybe more and it will start to become legal. The law is slowly being passed across cities and states in the US. Because of all the lies that were spread during the 70′s and 80′s and in 1988 it was made official it was illigal in all 50 states. Now people are finding out the true answers. Anyways im done here…got work and school LATES!
Comment by lain— 27 August, 2006 #
(first of all excuse my grammar,spelling,handwritting,smell etc. etc. )
Let’s think outside of the box for just a minute here. What IS religion and what does it have to do with God ? Could it be that religion is just a means to an end ? Let’s say that you are a king/monarch/president/ruler and you want to wage war on some other country or region for your own personal benefits, what would you do ? How could you convince your people to go fight for YOUR own reasons ? Well one answer to that question is simply “God Told Me So…” or “They Don’t Believe In OUR God… Let’s Kill Them”. Easy. There are quite a few examples of this use of religion. The crusades for one.
Now let’s think of it from a different perspective. Say you are a gifted man of thought, a philosopher,say you are Jesus. And lets asume that you want to spread your ideas and ideals because you believe that the world will be a better place if people live be your “rules”. What do you do? BadaBING… Create a religion.
So it can be argued that religion is just a means to and end (either for good or evil). If you back your ideas with a quote from a distinguished thinker/philosopher/artist/scientist they immediately get more respect. So what would happen if you backed your ideas with a “quote” from the allmighty .. !
And finally, YES it IS irrelevent if God really exists or not. The idea of God is man’s crutch for supporting his alleged lack of purpose in this world.
Comment by GizmuX— 27 August, 2006 #
Oh my, you’re right I should have been more specific. My apologize, let me rephrase.
…. Point? Put the METH pipe down slowly, and walk to the nearest neuropsychiatric institute.
I forget that you tweakers can’t grasp even the obvious.
Comment by Elohim— 27 August, 2006 #
Wow i cant belive someone said you cant od on weed that kid really makes me laugh of course you can you retard. When you od on weed your brain shuts down and with your brain gone none of your other systems can work properly so you die a slow painless death. Oh and weed does do sumthing to you in the long run idiot and before you come back and say its media garbage think about it k?
smoking weed in the short term does absolutly nothin but as you keep on smoking weed yor brain starts to release dopamine. Now when you keep on smokin it your brain keeps releasing more and more dopamine and your brain starts to get used to it so you dont even know that your reading and writing is slowly getting shittier and you slightly become less coherent until your a burnout on the street. Now im waitin for the first person to tell me that im just repeating the goverments words bullshit the goverments couldnt care less what you do to yourself the only rehab centers are set up by corporations and charities and since they dont see weed as a right cause to fight for thats why you dont see rehab centers.
There scan my argument and find flaws in it you tweakers
Comment by Pizza Monster— 27 August, 2006 #
hello there,
does god exist ? …. yes
ok then, who is jesus ? … i think he is just a regular man ,particularly .. a messenger from our god the creator
i’m a muslim and that’s what we belives
we have in our holy book “Quran” the full story of jesus berth in chapter called “Mariam” or as you said mary the virgin
i will post the whole chapter in the end of this reply
belive it or not dear christians
we belive the same prophets and messengers you belive
david – suliman – moses – ibraham – ….
i can bring you each story of them ,,, you will find it similar
for any further information
you may contact me
hlloya@hotmail.com
by the way
i’m not a scintist or religes worshiper
it’s just a few words i would like to share with you
thank you for your time
i hope we all gathered in heaven
=====================
“Surat Mariam” = “Chapter of mary the virgin”
1. Kâf HâYâ’AînSâd. [These letters are one of the miracles of the Qur'ân, and none but Allâh (Alone) knows their meanings].
2. (This is) a mention of the mercy of your Lord to His slave Zakariya (Zachariah).
3. When he called out his Lord (Allâh) a call in secret,
4. Saying: “My Lord! Indeed my bones have grown feeble, and grey hair has spread on my head, And I have never been unblest in my invocation to You, O my Lord!
5. “And Verily! I fear my relatives after me, since my wife is barren. So give me from Yourself an heir,
6. “Who shall inherit me, and inherit (also) the posterity of Ya’qûb (Jacob) (inheritance of the religious knowledge and Prophethood, not the wealth, etc.). And make him, my Lord, one with whom You are Well-pleased!”.
7. (Allâh said) “O Zakariya (Zachariah)! Verily, We give you the glad tidings of a son, His name will be Yahya (John). We have given that name to none before (him).”
8. He said: “My Lord! How can I have a son, when my wife is barren, and I have reached the extreme old age.”
9. He said: “So (it will be). Your Lord says; It is easy for Me. Certainly I have created you before, when you had been nothing!”
10. [Zakariya (Zachariah)] said: “My Lord! Appoint for me a sign.” He said: “Your sign is that you shall not speak unto mankind for three nights, though having no bodily defect.”
11. Then he came out to his people from Al-Mihrâb (a praying place or a private room, etc.), he told them by signs to glorify Allâh’s Praises in the morning and in the afternoon.
12. (It was said to his son): “O Yahya (John)! Hold fast the Scripture [the Taurât (Torah)].” And We gave him wisdom while yet a child.
13. And (made him) sympathetic to men as a mercy (or a grant) from Us, and pure from sins [i.e. Yahya (John)] and he was righteous,
14. And dutiful towards his parents, and he was neither an arrogant nor disobedient (to Allâh or to his parents).
15. And Salâmun (peace) be on him the day he was born, the day he dies, and the day he will be raised up to life (again)!
16. And mention in the Book (the Qur’ân, O Muhammad , the story of) Maryam (Mary), when she withdrew in seclusion from her family to a place facing east.
17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh [angel Jibrael (Gabriel)], and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects.
18. She said: “Verily! I seek refuge with the Most Beneficent (Allâh) from you, if you do fear Allâh.”
19. (The angel) said: “I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son.”
20. She said: “How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?”
21. He said: “So (it will be), your Lord said: ‘That is easy for Me (Allâh): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allâh), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allâh).’ ”
22. So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place (i.e. Bethlehem valley about 4-6 miles from Jerusalem).
23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said: “Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!”
24. Then [the babe 'Iesa (Jesus) or Jibrael (Gabriel)] cried unto her from below her, saying: “Grieve not! Your Lord has provided a water stream under you;
25. “And shake the trunk of date-palm towards you, it will let fall fresh ripe-dates upon you.”
26. “So eat and drink and be glad, and if you see any human being, say: ‘Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Beneficent (Allâh) so I shall not speak to any human being this day.’”
27. Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said: “O Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing Fariya (an unheard mighty thing).
28. “O sister (i.e. the like) of Hârûn (Aaron) [not the brother of Mûsa (Moses), but he was another pious man at the time of Maryam (Mary)]! Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman.”
29. Then she pointed to him. They said: “How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?”
30. “He ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allâh, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;”
31. “And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me Salât (prayer), and Zakât, as long as I live.”
32. “And dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblest.
33. “And Salâm (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!”
34. Such is ‘Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute).
35. It befits not (the Majesty of) Allâh that He should beget a son [this refers to the slander of Christians against Allâh, by saying that 'Iesa (Jesus) is the son of Allâh]. Glorified (and Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). When He decrees a thing, He only says to it, “Be!” and it is.
36. ['Iesa (Jesus) said]: “And verily Allâh is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him (Alone). That is the Straight Path. (Allâh’s Religion of Islâmic Monotheism which He did ordain for all of His Prophets).” [Tafsir At-Tabarî]
37. Then the sects differed [i.e. the Christians about 'Iesa (Jesus)], so woe unto the disbelievers [those who gave false witness by saying that 'Iesa (Jesus) is the son of Allâh] from the meeting of a great Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection, when they will be thrown in the blazing Fire).
38. How clearly will they (polytheists and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh) see and hear, the Day when they will appear before Us! But the Zalimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers) today are in plain error.
39. And warn them (O Muhammad ) of the Day of grief and regrets, when the case has been decided, while (now) they are in a state of carelessness, and they believe not.
40. Verily! We will inherit the earth and whatsoever is thereon. And to Us they all shall be returned,
41. And mention in the Book (the Qur’ân) Ibrâhim (Abraham). Verily! He was a man of truth, a Prophet.
42. When he said to his father: “O my father! Why do you worship that which hears not, sees not and cannot avail you in anything?
43. “O my father! Verily! There has come to me of knowledge that which came not unto you. So follow me. I will guide you to a Straight Path.
44. “O my father! Worship not Shaitân (Satan). Verily! Shaitân (Satan) has been a rebel against the Most Beneficent (Allâh).
45. “O my father! Verily! I fear lest a torment from the Most Beneficent (Allâh) overtake you, so that you become a companion of Shaitân (Satan) (in the Hell-fire).” [Tafsir Al-Qurtubî]
46. He (the father) said: “Do you reject my gods, O Ibrâhim (Abraham)? If you stop not (this), I will indeed stone you. So get away from me safely before I punish you.”
47. Ibrâhim (Abraham) said: “Peace be on you! I will ask Forgiveness of my Lord for you. Verily! He is unto me, Ever Most Gracious.
48. “And I shall turn away from you and from those whom you invoke besides Allâh. And I shall call on my Lord; and I hope that I shall not be unblest in my invocation to my Lord.”
49. So when he had turned away from them and from those whom they worshipped besides Allâh, We gave him Ishâque (Isaac) and Ya’qûb (Jacob), and each one of them We made a Prophet.
50. And We gave them of Our Mercy (a good provision in plenty), and We granted them honour on the tongues (of all the nations, i.e everybody remembers them with a good praise).
51. And mention in the Book (this Qur’ân) Mûsa (Moses). Verily! He was chosen and he was a Messenger (and) a Prophet.
52. And We called him from the right side of the Mount, and made him draw near to Us for a talk with him [Mûsa (Moses)].
53. And We bestowed on him his brother Hârûn (Aaron), (also) a Prophet, out of Our Mercy.
54. And mention in the Book (the Qur’ân) Ismâ’il (Ishmael). Verily! He was true to what he promised, and he was a Messenger, (and) a Prophet.
55. And he used to enjoin on his family and his people As-Salât (the prayers) and the Zakât, and his Lord was pleased with him.
56. And mention in the Book (the Qur’ân) Idris (Enoch).Verily! He was a man of truth, (and) a Prophet.
57. And We raised him to a high station.
58. Those were they unto whom Allâh bestowed His Grace from among the Prophets, of the offspring of Adam, and of those whom We carried (in the ship) with Nûh (Noah), and of the offspring of Ibrâhim (Abraham) and Israel and from among those whom We guided and chose. When the Verses of the Most Beneficent (Allâh) were recited unto them, they fell down prostrating and weeping.
59. Then, there has succeeded them a posterity who have given up As-Salât (the prayers) [i.e. made their Salât (prayers) to be lost, either by not offering them or by not offering them perfectly or by not offering them in their proper fixed times, etc.] and have followed lusts. So they will be thrown in Hell.
60. Except those who repent and believe (in the Oneness of Allâh and His Messenger Muhammad ), and work righteousness. Such will enter Paradise and they will not be wronged in aught.
61. (They will enter) ‘Adn (Eden) Paradise (everlasting Gardens), which the Most Beneficent (Allâh) has promised to His slaves in the unseen: Verily! His Promise must come to pass.
62. They shall not hear therein (in Paradise) any Laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk), but only Salâm (salutations of peace). And they will have therein their sustenance, morning and afternoon. [See (V.40:55)].
63. Such is the Paradise which We shall give as an inheritance to those of Our slaves who have been Al-Muttaqûn (pious and righteous persons – See V.2:2).
64. And we (angels) descend not except by the Command of your Lord (O Muhammad ). To Him belongs what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between those two, and your Lord is never forgetful,
65. Lord of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, so worship Him (Alone) and be constant and patient in His worship. Do you know of any who is similar to Him? (of course none is similar or coequal or comparable to Him, and He has none as partner with Him). [There is nothing like unto Him and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer].
66. And man (the disbeliever) says: “When I am dead, shall I then be raised up alive?”
67. Does not man remember that We created him before, while he was nothing?
68. So by your Lord, surely, We shall gather them together, and (also) the Shayâtin (devils) (with them), then We shall bring them round Hell on their knees.
69. Then indeed We shall drag out from every sect all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against the Most Beneficent (Allâh).
70. Then, verily, We know best those who are most worthy of being burnt therein.
71. There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord; a Decree which must be accomplished.
72. Then We shall save those who use to fear Allâh and were dutiful to Him. And We shall leave the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrongdoers, etc.) therein (humbled) to their knees (in Hell).
73. And when Our Clear Verses are recited to them, those who disbelieve (the rich and strong among the pagans of Quraish who live a life of luxury) say to those who believe (the weak, poor companions of Prophet Muhammad who have a hard life): “Which of the two groups (i.e. believers and disbelievers) is best in (point of) position and as regards station (place of council for consultation).”
74. And how many a generation (past nations) have We destroyed before them, who were better in wealth, goods and outward appearance?
75. Say (O Muhammad ) whoever is in error, the Most Beneficent (Allâh) will extend (the rope) to him, until, when they see that which they were promised, either the torment or the Hour, they will come to know who is worst in position, and who is weaker in forces. [This is the answer for the Verse No.19:73]
76. And Allâh increases in guidance those who walk aright [true believers in the Oneness of Allâh who fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden), and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)]. And the righteous good deeds that last, are better with your Lord, for reward and better for resort.
77. Have you seen him who disbelieved in Our Ayât (this Qur’ân and Muhammad ) and (yet) says: “I shall certainly be given wealth and children [if I will be alive (again)],”
78. Has he known the unseen or has he taken a covenant from the Most Beneficent (Allâh)?
79. Nay! We shall record what he says, and We shall increase his torment (in the Hell);
80. And We shall inherit from him (at his death) all that he talks of (i.e. wealth and children which We have bestowed upon him in this world), and he shall come to Us alone.
81. And they have taken (for worship) âliha (gods) besides Allâh, that they might give them honour, power and glory (and also protect them from Allâh’s Punishment etc.).
82. Nay, but they (the so-called gods) will deny their worship of them, and become opponents to them (on the Day of Resurrection).
83. See you not that We have sent the Shayâtin (devils) against the disbelievers to push them to do evil.
84. So make no haste against them; We only count out to them a (limited) number (of the days of the life of this world and delay their term so that they may increase in evil and sins).
85. The Day We shall gather the Muttaqûn (pious – see V.2:2) unto the Most Beneficent (Allâh), like a delegate (presented before a king for honour).
86. And We shall drive the Mujrimûn (polytheists, sinners, criminals, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, etc.) to Hell, in a thirsty state (like a thirsty herd driven down to water),
87. None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission (or promise) from the Most Beneficent (Allâh).
88. And they say: “The Most Beneficent (Allâh) has begotten a son (or offspring or children) [as the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allâh, and the Christians say that He has begotten a son ['Iesa (Christ)], and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (angels, etc.)].”
89. Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.
90. Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins,
91. That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent (Allâh).
92. But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent (Allâh) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children).
93. There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Beneficent (Allâh) as a slave.
94. Verily, He knows each one of them, and has counted them a full counting.
95. And everyone of them will come to Him alone on the Day of Resurrection (without any helper, or protector or defender).
96. Verily, those who believe [in the Oneness of Allâh and in His Messenger (Muhammad)] and work deeds of righteousness, the Most Beneficent (Allâh) will bestow love for them (in the hearts of the believers).
97. So We have made this (the Qur’ân) easy in your own tongue (O Muhammad ), only that you may give glad tidings to the Muttaqûn (pious and righteous persons – See V.2:2), and warn with it the Ludda (most quarrelsome) people.
98. And how many a generation before them have We destroyed! Can you (O Muhammad ) find a single one of them or hear even a whisper of them?
Comment by Spark— 27 August, 2006 #
Umm… do you have point??
“does god exist ? …. yes”
If it were that simple then we’d all be in happy candy land…
Where is your evidence? Do you believe in god because yes?
Comment by junaman— 27 August, 2006 #
LOL – how funny this all is. People getting all steamed up over the “Santa for grown-ups” fairytale.
Religion, God and/or any other “belief” in a deity is just that…a belief. It does not constitiute scientific fact of any kind. For hundreds of years people “believed” the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth. That did not make it true and with a lttle bit of intelligence and scientific advancement, we discovered that they (we) were WRONG! Yes folks, it really is possible that the whole world can believe in something that just isn’t true… just like the “God” blind-faith syndrome. People were persecuted and put to death in cruel and horrific ways if they contradicted this mistaken belief – all in the name of “God” too – the kind, merciful guy that represents “love of humanity”. If there is one thing history has taught us, it his how WRONG we have always been about what we percieved at the time, due to lack of knowledge/evidence (eg. the Moon is made of cheese). How come Christians cannot (or refuse to) see the ironic hypocracy in that? I put it down to culture-shock.
It is impossible to get someone to give up their belief system however obviously flawed it is…otherwise they would be admitting that they were WRONG, they had it all WRONG and their “God” that dictated how to live their lives was really just a bunch of control-freaks in fancy clothes manipulating them and their thoughts. Nobody would like to admit to be that much of a complete idiot!!
The whole “Greater being” philosphy came about because when we were just ignorant cave dwellers we needed something to make sense of the world we lived in – to explain away natural phenomena that was beyond our primitive comprehension. To still desperately cling to this belief is just plain backwards and deterimental to humanity’s intellectual advancement. In simple terms (for the simple people) – you are clinging to cave-man beliefs despite scientific evidence to the contrary.
The other function of the “god-belief” syndrome is to make people feel better about death. I thought this was rather obvious but I am still amazed at how people so desperately want to beleieve that there is “something wonderful waiting for them on the other side of death”. I suppose sugar-coating the cold hard reality of the finality of it all is a much nice way of telling little Jimmy that “Grandma is DEAD”. Isn’t it a lovely euphamism to say “Grandma has gone on to a better place..” and “She will be up in Heaven watching over us/waiting for us” and all that usual crap. That would be far easier for simple people to accept rather than the cold hard fact of “Grandma is worm food!”.
The “Santa Claus Analogy” is always a good one… “If you arent a good little boy Santa won’t bring you presents at the end of the year”….”If you aren’t a good little christian (or whatever), God won’t give you a gift at the end of your life”.
Its amazing how you can control people’s behaviour with the carrot-on-a-stick apporach – it certainly has worked for governments since the Middle Ages. It is a pity some still cling to this primitive, unproven and narrow-minded mindset.
Of course I fully expect all the “Believers” to come pouring out of the wood-work chanting their dogmatic mantras of “Non-beiever” “sinner” “blasphemy” and praying to “save my soul”….. this is the predictable knee-jerk response to anyone who points out to someone that their entire belief system is based on a fairy-tale. I doubt they will be able to provide any concrete proof of any greater being at all…it will be a first if they did! I doubt they wil even be able to offer an intelligent rational debate based on facts since they have so little to offer anyway. I fully expect the tirade of abuse and insults aimed at me personally, rather than any form of objective criticism of my views expressed, that one would normally expect from any intellectual exchange of ideas. This is the way they (Christians/blind-faith believers) deal with those who brazenly point out “the Emperor isn’t wearing any clothes”. So much for brotherly love.
And one final point – the “Bible” is NOT the word of God! It is a BOOK – written by MAN, edited by MAN and printed by MAN. If you choose to believe it has some great mystical properties, being inspired by devine sources, then that is YOUR CHOICE to beleive such rot, that does not make it FACT so stop touting “its in the Bible” like that is the be-all and end-all of any kind of disagreement. There is so much historical evidence that proves (yes PROOF – something the “believers has so little of), the bible has been altered, edited by various Popes to suit the needs of the day, has omssions, contradictions and inconcistancies. To blindly believe this book is the direct “word of God” is just pure dogmatic ignorance to the facts. But then thats YOUR choice Mr.Christian – don’t force it onto me as if it represents some kind of Scientific, undisputable empirical evidence.
If God is so great and powerful, how come he needs us to beg and grovel and worship him in order to exist? He would be above such petty egotistical demands, one would think, logically that is. Organised religion is the biggest crock-of-shit ever. If there was a better way to seperate dumb peasants from their money and make them feel good about it, nobody else has come up with it yet. Its a pity that only people on the outside looking-in can see this.
Belief is just that “A Belief”. It does not, never has and never will, equate to “Fact”. Believe what you will, but don’t palm your mind-control shit off onto me like you are so much more knowledgeable and wiser, you holier-than-thou sanctimoniuos dumb sheep!. I believe that to accept God, Jesus and the Bible as “the” truth, you have to be some kind of pathetic, ignorant, uneducated dumbass in denial. But then thats just my belief
Ignorance is bliss – no wonder Christians are happy.
Comment by book my ticket to hell— 27 August, 2006 #
wow, i reckon its impossible to know the truth, believe wateva u wana believe, no point arguein about it tho- right?
Comment by noob666— 27 August, 2006 #
That’s exactly not the point… and yes, you are aptly named “noob”.
You see the question of god’s existence, as shown in the article above (vaguely) is quite irrelevant.
The dilemma is about belief, not truth.
Letting people believe what the want to believe is dangerous, in that it blind belief leads to all the horrible things stated above.
We must question these beliefs to make the world a better place.
How do you think revolutions, reformations and progress comes to be. Is it because people remain blind sheep and follow the government of the time?
No…
The point of arguing about this is because the religious belief has in all periods of time caused war and if someone doesn’t explain logic to the sheep, then they will continue performing their illogical segregating acts…
Comment by junaman— 27 August, 2006 #
Congratulations! You’ve won a WordPress.com award for most procrastination! Go to http://google.com/search?q=you_are_a_noob to collect your prize!
Comment by Mr WordPress— 27 August, 2006 #
umm?? wtf???
Comment by junaman— 27 August, 2006 #
Ehehhehh… it’s fun to post random comments on peoples’ blogs
Comment by Mr WordPress— 27 August, 2006 #
dear junaman,
i dont have to bring evidences for you to belive there is a god or not,,,
you can proof it for yourself, by asking questions about the world you are living in
how does humans life began on earth,, isn’t there a begining
how old are the lifes around us? if you get a number,,, then what was it like before that, who are the creator
as we all know we have a soul. everyone, did we see it, how can we belive it. some issues are mentally figured we don’t need a physical evidence of everything.
i cant and i wouldn’t force you to accept my opinion
Comment by Spark— 27 August, 2006 #
“as we all know we have a soul.”
I don’t believe in a soul… I don’t think souls exist… so no, we don’t all know we have a soul
“how does humans life began on earth,, isn’t there a begining”
And more importantly who cares?
And is it worth killing over?
Ok, so hypothetically we have a creator…
Why do we have to worship him?
Why don’t we just live our lives today…. creator or not.. who cares?
That is the problem…
Comment by junaman— 27 August, 2006 #
Mr WordPress thinks junaman DOES care. Your articles are antitheist, not agnostic or even just plain atheist… and now you say you don’t care?
Hmmm.
Comment by Mr WordPress— 27 August, 2006 #
My article is about god’s existance being irrelevant…
I am against religion.. but i could not care less who created us.. although the lack of proof for the contrary leads me to believe that no one did
Comment by junaman— 27 August, 2006 #
spark – you write like a ten year old child and your arguments (or lack of) confirm that.
“i dont have to bring evidences for you to belive there is a god…” wtf??! What kind of pathetic bullshit is that???? Its a flaky cop-out statement made by someone who obviously has nothing intelligent to offer. Umm, yes you DO have to prove somethng DOES exist for it to be taken as a fact that it exists.
“as we all know we have a soul” wtf again??!!?
How do “we” all know this? this is not a fact but a statement of your opinion – and not all religions share that belief anyway.
You obviously need to do some research if you don’t want to continue sounding like a complete dimwit. I for one donot believe in the concept of “a soul” as I have seen no evidence whatsoever to support it – and I have searched for it, not just buried my head in the sand and uttered absolute drivel, like you.
By asking ourselves a rhetorical question does not constitute “proof” in any form whatsoever! That is a perposterous statement of stupidity in the extreme!!(By the way….”you can proof it for yourself” – try spelling it “prove” for a little more credibility…)
Not knowing the answer to a question does not amount to proof of a God either. I don’t know how old the Earth is exactly, nobody really does…scientists can only estimate. But how the heck does that equate to indeniable existance of a greater being?? This kind of assertion is so obviously flawed it is infantile and moronic.
“how does humans life began on earth”
apart from demonstrating a very, very poor level of grammar, this also shows that you lack some very basic fundamentals of education. Seriously, go and learn something from real books before dribbling your childish shit.
Some time in the 1800′s (can’t be othered looking it up – you Google it), they added the dates up in the Bible and categorically stated the Earth was a mere 6,000 years old – and palmed that off as fact. We (well, the educated people anyway) all know that is completely wrong, but thats what they believed and wanted us to believe at the time.
Once upon a time they didnt know how rainbows were formed, what cause Volanoes to erupt, where meteors came from etc etc and put it all down as “proof of God”…the list is of ignorant assumptions endless. The marvel of nature are indeed truly marvels…but once again, that is not “proof” there is a God, or any kind of greater “Creator” despite some ignoramous thinking otherwise.
I think Darwin got it right. We evolved. Simple as that. There is NO God, just nature and evolution. Unfortunately while most of us sprang from apes, a few of us may have stumbled…..
Comment by bring on the morons— 27 August, 2006 #
I am a person who does not believe in god.I think you fucking retarts are all wasting your time with the god subject! Just fucking live life and see what fucking happens.And this soul bullshit, the only thing that may be inside you are fucking worms in your brain for fucking believing in god!This is the most pathetic thing you people go to church every sunday waste a fucking hour listening to some dumbass talk and your supposed to feel fucking happy?I get fucking angry!
Comment by johnnyboy— 27 August, 2006 #
“spark – you write like a ten year old child”
actully i’m 9 year old
but it doesn’t make in diffrince
it would be better if we stick to the subject and leave unneccesory aspect ,,, don’t we?
i can see that you are totally disagree with me,,, fine
it’s OK for me,,,, don’t let our disageement effect in your fine behavior,,, it doesn’t worth to spoil your nerve for such a discussion or any other…
junaman,,,
“And is it worth killing over?”
i belive that everyone has the right to live his life,,, the way he choose,,,
nothing worth to be killing for?
no matter what is your race, religion, language and area your originally from
Comment by Spark— 28 August, 2006 #
Wow, you’ve cracked it. All of the world’s greatest minds over thousands of years weren’t able to figure out whether god exists or not, but some dimwit on a forum on the internet got it. You must be so proud of yourself to know that you’re right. How arrogant.
Comment by Travis— 28 August, 2006 #
One of the worlds greatest minds
Frederick Nietzsche 1844-1900 “God is Dead”
Comment by Elohim— 28 August, 2006 #
@ Travis
Wow, you’re retarded…
All of the greatest minds in the world have been saying that you are retarded and yet it took some dimwit on the internet to first point that out to you….
please go fuck yourself…
@ Spark
The fact is religion causes wars and discrimination against other. Even if you don’t, you are part of the bigger problem..
Comment by junaman— 28 August, 2006 #
spark “actully i’m 9 year old”
Well that does not surprise me because your statements are so infantile and meaningless that only someone with a childs mind could think them up.
Maybe you should go to School and learn something, like how to write and spell properly for example, and leave the big talk to the grown ups!
Comment by bring on the morons— 28 August, 2006 #
HAHAHAHA…….
btw I CENSORED YOU…. haha….. suck……
- edited by junaman
Comment by ZOG— 28 August, 2006 #
i am neither Catholic nor Protestant nor eastern Orthodox. I am a Mormon, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. opz. Candy i would have to write a book to answer the 149 questions on your post but there are answers to all of them. but I will try to address some of the more basic questions. God never did anything out of hate. Everything he did he did out of love.that includes allowing the wicked to be distroyed and the righteous to be scurged to bring the to repentence and to purify them.
why should we worship God? Because God is our literal Father, the Father of all living spirits. the Father of athiest and christians alike. Jesus Christ being the first born of all the spirits in heaven. in Heaven we were called Angels and God had a plan for all of His children to become like Him.God being God can not allow any degree of sin and knowing that we would fail, his plan provided a savior for us Jesus Christ because we would be unworthy to pay the price because the law was Eternal, it required an Eternal Godly sacrifice therfore, Jesus Christ paid for our sins if we will believe in him and keep his commandments.
And you say “give me proof”. well if you want proof that the Jesus Christ existed there are ancient roman documents that prove that and as for proof of his divinity there are the scriptures. the Bible which you dismiss is one. there is also the doctrine and Covenance write by prophets in these last days who have spoken with the resurrected Jesus Christ as one man speaks with another. and there is the Book of Mormon, the second testament of Jesus Christ. it is a history of an ancient people in the Americas who both saw and heard Jesus Christ and the testimonies of their Prophets. the Book of Mormon makes a promise that if you read the Book of Mormon and then ask God if it is true then God will tell you and their will be no doubt. So, i give you all a challenge. Read the Book of Mormon and ask God in the name of Jesus Christ if it is true. then you will know that God lives and Jesus Christ is or Lord and savior.
lastly i give you my testimony that God lives and Loves us. that Jesus Christ is our Savior. that the Book of Mormon is true. that the Fullness of the Gospel and the Kingdom of God have been restored to the earth in these last days and that there are Prophets today who have seen and talked to Jesus Christ. I give you my testimony in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen
Comment by epcookjr— 29 August, 2006 #
AH HA
I’m censoring you too…..retard….
- edited by junaman
Comment by I HATE BLOGGERS— 29 August, 2006 #
I am censoring yuo because:
Firstly, we do not live in a non-censored society and libel is illegal
Secondly, there is a large difference between censorship and quality control
Thirdly, a big part of a censorshipless government is individual censorship. Everyone should have the right to a medium, just not someone else’s…
Comment by junaman— 29 August, 2006 #
FUCK GOD, FUCK RELIGION, FUCK IT ALL! All every1 need to focus on is semites and how to destroy them! Jews are the cancer of our society!
Most of the current religions have somehow evolved from judaism:
-christianity: jesus was a JEW!
-islam: Muhamed basically copied judaism… added a jihad, some bombs and vwolla!
To end religion we need to get it from its source. Damn jews! they are responsible for this entire mess! stop bitching about whether god is real or not… all you need to worry about is jews and zionism… JEWS ARE EVIL!
Comment by Larry— 29 August, 2006 #
Forget even responding to the mormon, they’re completely brainwashed from childhood (as is obvious). I should know, I used to be one of them. I even went on one of their missions and I’ve been to their temples, and unfortunatly baptised over 80 people into their religion. Their is no understanding the mind of a mormon.
Unfortunately by typing this I’m going to receive a personal response from the mormon, but oh well, I’ll just have to ignore that. For more information on mormons visit http://www.josephlied.com/
Comment by Elohim— 30 August, 2006 #
May God forgive you my friend……..
Comment by C.J.— 31 August, 2006 #
May God forgive you my friend……..you will soon wish you had never wrote these things….
Comment by C.J.— 31 August, 2006 #
Take your praying for me somewhere else, please….
Comment by junaman— 31 August, 2006 #
I hate people who judge others. I repsect opinions. If one believes in God then let God be his/her judge. If one believes in a stone then let that stone be his/her judge.
If you are a christian then you must love your enemy and you must not judge anyone. This is why I like the teachings of Jesus. I avoid churches because I do not know the motives of many pasters. I know they make a lot of money some of them. I also avoid churches because they are like a tradition rather than an assembly of people. Church is misunderstood and does not have to be in a certain place.
We should not create barriers.I disrespect anyone who passes a judgement on another person because of thier beliefs. For example if a christian judges an atheist because he or she believes that there isn’t a God, then this is wrong. Similarly the atheist should not pass a judgement on a believer. If everyone can do this then there would be no problem. But both believers and athiests on this website have no respect for one another. Of course others are just adding comments that make no sense thinking they are funny and cool.
Comment by Roberto— 1 September, 2006 #
The following is going to be long and talk about mormons. If you don’t want to know about mormons which, officially I am one, don’t bother reading.
I’m not passing judgment, I know that mormons are brainwashed because I am one. My name is on their rolls. I was baptized at 8, given the priesthood at 12, and then later another priesthood at 19, I went to the temple and made lots of covenants, I wore holly garments (underware), I went on a mission, I have visiting teachers. I just talked to my bishop last week who stopped by my house to say hi. I attended church the week before that (not important why) etc, etc, etc.
My family (except for me) are practicing mormons. My thinking that they’re brainwashed and their thinking that I’m corrupt doesn’t matter, and it doesn’t create barriers. At first it was weird, yes. My family was always holding interventions for me and inviting over everyone they knew to have a talking with me. My family even had one of the corium of the 70 (that’s a very high office in mormonism) along with my 85 year old Grandfather, who is the patriarch of 20 years (that’s also a high office in mormonism) of his native foreign country over to have a speaking with me and straighten me out.
Since then we’ve simply … well actually it wasn’t so simple, but eventually we came to the understanding that if I visit my parents house (which I do weekly on Sunday for dinner) they aren’t going to bring up my religious beliefs or bring over any surprise guests. Likewise I respect their beliefs, I don’t eat until they bless the food and say their prayer etc etc. We still talk about “the church” sure. My parent’s life at their age revolves entirely around church. It’s impossible to separate church from what’s going on in their lives because that IS what’s going on in their lives. Their every act is admittedly (ask any practicing mormon if you don’t believe me) governed by their church schedule, callings, belifs, and that mornings (and subsequent) prayer.
What’s my point? …. I live in Utah, if I were to create barriers and pass judgment on every mormon I would have to; Stop talking to all of my friends because they’re all mormons. Stop talking to my family because they’re mormon. Stop going to any public place because I have a 50/50 chance that the person I’m looking at is mormon. Stop existing. I can never separate myself from mormonism, nor do I have any intentions of trying to. But if specifically asked I will express my opinion about what’s wrong with religion in general, and mormonism in specific.
So yes, I absolutely do believe that mormons are brainwashed. How do I know? My own first hand personal experience. Do mormons belive that I’m corrupt and going to a bad place when I die? Yes, they do. I’ve been to the mormon temple where at that time I swore on my life (literally, I actually had to make a promise and do an uber secret hand signal that I would kill myself by disembowelment and accept my fate if I ever divulged anything about the mormon temple.) that I would never tell anyone a single thing about what goes on in mormon temples. My posting that link alone would constitute my excommunication from the mormon church, and my direct ticket to a not so wonderful afterlife. The mormon religion is actually more aptly a cult but they have fortunately come a long way in the last 30 years. Polygamy was stopped over a century ago. More recently In 1979 blacks were officially not a cursed race anymore and were allowed to receive the priesthood and hold callings and such. The mormons have also come a long way to becoming not so sexist recently as well. I hope that the “commandment from god” for every 19 year old male to serve a two year mission will change to not being a commandment from god, but to being an invitation to those who want to go, but that unfortunately is never going to happen. The best that I can hope for is that missionaries will be treated better while out on their two year mission.
I will never stop loving my family and they will never stop loving me. I consider myself fortunate in this aspect as there are a few who upon not following the mormon church any more are no longer welcome amongst family members. It’s unfortunate, and unfortunately true of many sects. I’ve lived in Mexico and Argentina and if you stop believing in the catholic beliefs you’re not going to be treated well by pretty much everyone. Not just family members.
It’s also true that my family will never stop thinking that I am pretty much doomed for eternity, and I will never stop thinking that they’re brainwashed, it’s what we believe. Likewise you have beliefs that you think are the right beliefs, everyone does. But if I see something causing more harm than good, I’m likely to voice my beliefs to those who are interested. Nobody is being forced to read through all of these comments, if you made it all the way to the bottom to read this then in my opinion you either have strong beliefs one way or the other, or something very very wrong with you. If you don’t like the topic, don’t read, don’t post. It’s that simple. If you don’t like this particular post and you actually read this far, refer back up to the top where I told you not to read it.
Comment by Elohim— 2 September, 2006 #
Juanaman, you have no clue do you? If you had a clue you would know the fact that you’re talking about God’s existence does show that it matters. It matters enough for you to take the time out of your day and tell others your point of view.
So if its such a pointless topic, stop blabbing your useless opinion.
Comment by Travis— 3 September, 2006 #
Hey Elohim,
Great post. I’ve found the mormon religion very interesting through the years. read a book called Under the banner of heaven. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385509510?v=glance
Its a very interesting read and explains a lot about where mormonism came from that I hadn’t learned in my studies.
Comment by Travis— 3 September, 2006 #
once again, no PROOF of god – just some fuckwit rambling about “Scriputres” being enough proof – a book written by humans.
JRR Tolkein also created a fantasy world that was very detailed and it history spanned thousands of years, but HE didn’t go around trying to flog it off as a religion. HE knew it was a story and that was all – a book written by a human. (Great story too).
Get a grip you moron, oops i mean mormon (ironic isnt it)you are doing exactly what every brainwashed simpleton does when confronted with criticism of your fake beleif – you revert to dribbling the old dogma that you have been indoctrinated with.
ALl that crap about “God has a plan” and “we are his children” blah blah fucking blah…. Yup heard all that tired old shit before. Just one simple easy question – WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?
Just because YOU believe that shit doesnt make it TRUE or FACTUAL – it just makes it your BELIEF
I still have yet to see one shred of GENUINE scientific evidence of a greater being – our so called “creator”.
You may want to believe those fairytales because you lack enough of your own brains to understand that there ISN’T an answer for everything but don’t try and pass your religous diatribe off as “fact” of evidence because it IS CLEARLY NOT!
And as far as organised religions go… the Mormons are one of the most ridiculous far-fetched bullshit ones – only Scientology would surpass it in expecting you (the simple minded peasant) to accept absolute bullshit as some kind of religious “fact”. Seriously – open your eyes and look at the shit you are peddling because it really sucks for lack of proof.
The Emporer really IS wearing No clothes – just because you wanna kiss his ass and live in denial….
you sad, sad, deluded desperate wannabe – cling to your loony cult beliefs if you want – but we are all food for worms and maggots in the end, nothing more.
Comment by bring on the morons— 3 September, 2006 #
@ Travis
You are quite unaware aren’t you?
I am not debating god’s existence but questioning the morality of religion, and stating that the immorality will not all of a sudden become moral if god were to exist. I am also stating that if a god existed he will definitely not be any of those that have books written about them…
Read my other article which explains why this is not a useless topic….
Comment by junaman— 3 September, 2006 #
Junaman,
“if a god existed he will definitely not be any of those that have books written about them”
So it’s a definite that all religions in the world have it wrong about God/gods? I somewhat agree with what you are saying. I believe that God has to reveal Himself to man on His own. I believe that in that revelation He can and does reveal His personality to us. You are right in thinking that man gets it wrong.
We cannot be so arrogant one way or the other to speak for God. If you believe in God you can ask Him to show you,in spite of yourself, who He/it is.
I believe that that path is Christ Jesus. I beieve that everyone needs to follow Christ. But I also believe that it is anyones choice. Christianity is not forced on us and when it is (by parents forcing children to go to church) i’ve seen many rebel. It is a simple but profound choice. It impacts all areas of your life. My choice in following Christ works for me in this life. I believe it will bring me safe to life after death as well. My stance is to not convince you or anyone else in what I believe. I tell those who wish to know about my beliefs. You’re obviously not an idiot and I apologize if I was harsh in my other posts.
Shiloh
Comment by Travis— 4 September, 2006 #
What you should really be asking yourselves here is “Does science exist?”, because the presense of one negates the other. Evolutionary creationism is a crock. Science and God cannot coexist, because science is fact based, and your religion is faith based. The two are as insoluble as water and oil, and can never be mixed. The Church’s attempt to achieve a common theory is preposterous to all those who think rationally, and just shows the lengths the Church’s leaders will go to simply to keep their religion alive. I find it disturbing that so many people readily subscribe to this theory, that they would volunteer to keep themselves in conformity to illogical beliefs for the sake of ‘feeling good’ at Church on Sunday. Do they really believe that without Christianity, morality would cease to exist? Christianity may have tamed the unruly masses in times past, but it is now outdated and unnecessary, except to those who create their living (and profit) from it’s existence. Open up your eyes, there is a mountain of evidence that will refute any ‘proof’ you have that your religion is true, and yet you still look the other way. The strongest ‘proof’ most of you have is your faith – You say that “I just know there is a God!”. Don’t you think it’s possible that the need for believing in a ‘higher power’ is hard wired into our biology? Take a look at the animal kingdom – Everywhere you look, there is a heirarchy, with one single head; the ‘big dog’, if you will. Of course, people have that instinct too. That’s why some people are ‘cool’, some aren’t. Leaders rise to the top of any organization because of certain character traits. My point is to get you consider the possibility that we are simply animals with a conscience, we have the capability to think abstractly, and we are aware of ourselves, but we have the latent instinct of seeking out a leader. Therefore, we create Gods and religions, and it just feels ‘right’ to worship them.
Comment by Robert— 5 September, 2006 #
@ Robert
Sceince and religion can co-exist quite comfortably.
Science occupies the area of fact. So we can know what gravity is, how humans were created, how the universe came into being.
Religion should – and by and large does – occupy the magisterium of values and morality. Very few people support harldine creationism anymore. Religion takes the learnings of science and makes a form of moral sense of them. We don’t need religion to get this morality, but it is one of many ways – holy or secular – of getting moral guidelines.
Science, for all it’s power, cannot tell us is killing is right or whether suicide is acceptable.
I recommend you read the thesis “Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the fullness of life” By Stephen Gould. It is a Master’s thesis on philosophy. It is a secular novel that accuratley describes the point I am trying to make.
Cheers
Comment by porcelainmonakey— 8 September, 2006 #
Maybe there is a god, maybe not.
If there is, would we even be able to comprehend exactly what we know?
What if everything we’ve said or thought is wrong – and we don’t even have words for what’s out there.
Comment by James— 9 September, 2006 #
“What if everything we’ve said or thought is wrong – and we don’t even have words for what’s out there.”
I’d take those odds against what’s written in the bible (and all “holly” books) any day.
Comment by Elohim— 9 September, 2006 #
wud sum1 plz answer dis question:what does the word religion mean? and where does it come from? plz reply
Comment by chavo 06— 10 September, 2006 #
Seeing as you’re too stupid to consult a dictionary I’ll do it for you:
re·li·gion (r-ljn) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of “religion” [P]
n.
1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
Idiom:
get religion Informa.
1. To become religious or devout.
2. To resolve to end one’s immoral behavior.
[Middle English religioun, from Old French religion, from Latin religi, religin-, perhaps from religre, to tie fast. See rely.]
Comment by junaman— 11 September, 2006 #
One of the most common questions is: Why does God not reveal himself?
If it all comes down to “seeing is believing,” then God doesn’t exist.
But on the other hand, people will always have faith. They believe so much, even though they’ve never seen.
Comment by James— 12 September, 2006 #
It ain’t the parts of the Bible that I can’t understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand.
- Mark Twain -
Comment by Elohim— 16 September, 2006 #
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
- Thomas Jefferson -
Comment by Elohim— 16 September, 2006 #
Our ignorance is God; what we know is science.
- Robert G. Ingersoll -
Comment by Elohim— 16 September, 2006 #
Why does God not reveal himself?
I am not religious and I don’t believe God exists.
But if He did, I wouldn’t expect a bloke who exists in infinite dimensions, knows everything that ever has and will happen, delivers His justice and is all-powerful (…I guess I am talking about the Christian God.) to mosey on down to earth to prove to a bunch of apes that He exists.
I am sure that God would be quite happy with us finding out for ourselves and reasoning as to why He exists.
God isn’t a social-slut.
Comment by porcelainmonkey— 16 September, 2006 #
Then why does he require worshipping?
Comment by junaman— 16 September, 2006 #
“i dont have to bring evidences for you to belive there is a god…” wtf??! What kind of pathetic bullshit is that???? Its a flaky cop-out statement made by someone who obviously has nothing intelligent to offer. Umm, yes you DO have to prove somethng DOES exist for it to be taken as a fact that it exists.
@ bring on the morons
Oh my God. You are an idiot. and so is bring on the morons. God cannot be proven to exist. That is why religion is based on faith. We are not arguing – or at least we shouldn’t be arguing – whether God exists or not. We should be arguing about the implications of religion and faith, the prevailing philosophies behind religion (eg don’t kill babies) and what religion tells us about ourselves.
It doesn’t matter if there is a God or not, belief in Him as important beacuse He can never be proven or disproven.
Comment by porcelainmonkey— 16 September, 2006 #
For someone who’s not religious you sure do sound like a dirty fundie…
Perhaps you just say you’re not religious so people don’t make fun of you and flame the hell out of you?
Closet Christianity right there…..
Comment by junaman— 16 September, 2006 #
“It doesn’t matter if there is a God or not, belief in Him as important beacuse He can never be proven or disproven.”
How does that make that important?
You can’t disprove the existence of an invisible ice-cream factory of Jupiter, but if I claimed it existed I would be taken away by me in white suits…
Comment by junaman— 16 September, 2006 #
its a paradox, god is us and we are god. each of you are alive in the moment, you cant deny that it is a phenomina not mapped by science, free will remaining one of the big questions in life and undiscovered by neurobiology. all religions have come close and been currupt by mans need for power…..and to those with grammatical issues, its about the fucking message, not the fucking code we use to convey it. understanding is not believing, but there comes a point when u must make the leap to the intangable, beyond words subject matter that everyone commonly experiences in life.
of course im just random shit chatter 29838 and my existance is meaningless with such meaning.
bastards
Comment by bone— 18 September, 2006 #
so…
You beleive this even though you cannot justify it at all in any way.
And you ignore science cos it doesnt tell you wat you want it to?
Youre a fuk
Comment by shrinkley— 18 September, 2006 #
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Trackback by xvieapk— 3 October, 2006 #
Im, a born again beliver in God. I have struggled with the concept of the many issues everyone talks about. I could never get a resonable answer from any man or woman about why would a loving God create a angel knowing would cuase all this confusion. And is free will relly threatening you by threating love me or else. These are the main issues alot of belivers, non belevers and jaded ones think about(myself included). The bible has much wisdom in it. I dont go to church much if at all. But I accepted Christ in my heart over 22 years ago and He(she) wont leave. I guess it must be free will to belive or not, I belive out of love(or I try ) not out of fear, I have been mad at God alot, but I get mad at people too. I try to respect all peoples opinions. After all is that not one of the things what seperates us from other spices is opinions. I respect the educated, and I respect the ignorant, we all breath the same air, its comes down to us as people with choices, we can chose our own thoughts if we become aware of them. If we dont become aware of them than anything can enter our minds and influence our choices. And I flunked out of school so I know about my bad spelling and grammar.
Comment by Michel— 4 October, 2006 #
Bruce Almighty was really a great story. And I heard they are coming out with a sequel call Evan Almighty or something like that. Is Carrey in that one?
Comment by Mr Skin— 13 October, 2006 #
SEND ME SOME ANCIENT STORY AND PHOTO AND HYMANS ON
MY E-MAIL
Comment by sandeep— 14 October, 2006 #
Is it just me, or has Larry King had like 5 heart attacks and 5 divorces. I guess that’d be a broken heart for each.
Comment by The Advanced Soul— 22 October, 2006 #
It does matter if you believe in God but even more so, it matters if you believe that Christ died for the awful things that you have done. In doing so, you just have to have faith.
It is all about Jesus. Think on that and I hope for the best for all of you.
Last thing, as I was scanning the comments by people – it is a belief in three seperate beings that are one called the Trinity. Think of it as the belief in the Trinity. This is what seperates Christianity apart from other religions out there.
I will not check your comments because I don’t have time.
I invite you to say what you want but I hope that at least one person out there reads this and knows that they are chosen & loved by God. This could open a whole other topic but let’s not.
All I have to say is, have faith in God, love the Lord, and receive the grace that is freely given to you.
God Bless.
Comment by Matt— 24 October, 2006 #
I was once a believer, or so I thought. maybe I was going through the motions, and traditions of my Parents, and family. I was told of the all loving God, and his everlasting presence upon this earth. But as I have grown older, and somewhat wiser, I have found that the everlasting presence of God is not at all here on this earth. I have traveled the world, and talk to different people of different religons, and have noticed one overwhelming fact. And that fact is that if you really pay attention God is a very strong stance for Waging War, Committing Murder, or justification for being better than the next man. Moses used God in order to kill every last Man and Woman in the land the Jews occupy now. (Dont worry I am not hating, just so called biblical facts). Arab’s use God to hate the Jews, and all infidels, Christains use God to push their views, and well look at the way Bush uses religon. And right here in this comment section reading some of the comments. This has started some comment makers to insult one another, and for what? It is a waste of energy in my opinion. Kind of sounds like a group of school kids doing the Paris, and Nicole thing.
So lets get back to the subject, is there a God, or Not? I am an Agnositc, and find it hard to beleive in a God. Let’s look at it for the Parents point of view. My parents told me if I ever got in a bind God would be there and help me through it. Just Pray to God he will hear you, and God this and GOd that. Well those hard times have come, and gone, and I was left standing on my own, No God, no help. Help from the church, Huh, I tried that a few times and was told this,” Are you part of this church? In which I stated, No I kind of stay to my self. I was told we only help members of our church. Which is good and everything, but that is not the Christian way I have always been brought up on. And why does God not take these Priest that molest children, and personally punish them. But they tell me, well they will get theirs when they meet God. I am sorry but we dont punish them ourselves they basically got away with it. Because you have to die to go see God, and sometimes that takes years to happen, and we dont even know if he really is there. So if he is not real, they criminal just got away with it. Shame, shame, shame on us.
And now some stories of past events that changeed the world, Christian’s would paint crosses on their shields, and were not touched by arrows, and won the battle. Could it be that the enemy was just a very bad shot? Tell the soldiers today to paint a cross on themselves and God will protect them. I dont think it would work. Even the hardest believes die some of the most horrible death’s still thinking God will protect them, and is with them. This is sad. I am not saying God is not with them, but I just dont see his presence in this world, just a make believe fantasy of what people want us to believe.
So if this comment sands some people into a frensy, and they just have to hate on it, and me, go ahead I could care less. Worlds do not bother me. Actions do, and your words are just an extention of what you are. “If you plant good seeds, good things will grow. Plant bad seeds and only bad things grow.” This last quote is from a friend, Adrian Victorian.
Comment by Michael1243— 25 October, 2006 #
To borrow from an earlier post: In ancient days, some people did not believe the world was round. It was later proven that the world is indeed round. Did the thoughts of any one person or group of people at that time influence the shape of the earth? No. The inevitible truth simply remained to be proven.
By the same token, none of our individual beliefs about the existence of God determines whether or not there really is a God. Either there is a God or there is not one. The inevitible truth simply remains to be proven.
If you choose not to believe in God and the Bible and you turn out to be correct, then congratulations.
But what if you are wrong? What if there is a God, who sent his son Jesus Christ to die for our sins. What if its true that those who choose to accept Jesus Chirst as their Savior do spend eternity in Heaven, and those who reject or deny Christ as the Son of God are condemned to an eternity in Hell?
I choose to believe the truth of the Bible. You are free to make your choice. If I’m wrong, I’ve a lived a content life serving a God who didnt exist. If you choose to deny God and you are the one who is wrong, you will suffer for all eternity in a place called Hell. Neither of our choices will change the inevitible truth – only our individual destination in eternity.
Neither my belief nor yours can change the existence or nonexistence of God. But remember, the earth did turn out to be round.
Comment by The Truth— 25 October, 2006 #
Last night I was doodling around on the internet looking to find out what the differences between Eastern Orthodox Christianity and the Roman Church were, when i came across THIS website….Does God Exist…Does it Matter? I read all of the posts, and along the way I was tempted to add my two cents worth, but stopped myself, because “who am I to tell anyone anything?”. So I finished reading the posts, all the way to the end a reminder in the last post that the earth indeed did turn out to be round.
OK, I’ve got to tell you, that since I left this website I have been more than a little bothered by what I read….I cant just leave without commenting on what has been written here.
Well…lets see, first of all I guess I should state that I do believe in the existence of the Creator God (His Power, His Word, and His Spirit) I also believe that the Holy Bible is the inspired word of God…and every word is true. It is Truth, It is the Mind of God given to us for guidance in this Life. The Ten Commandments are God’s Laws, that if everyone obeyed them, the world would not be in the shape it is in right now. That’s my personal belief.
I used to be Catholic. I used to study the occult (I could actually use a ouija board by myself!), and astrology which i really love. I always felt God was with me though. God loves the sinner…he just hates the sin. I guess I started to turn to God 30 years or so ago, my first step was coming out of the Church, and started to read the Bible. I’ve had some actual big miracles happen in my life, so it’s hard for me not to believe.
I think the Christian churches have totally confused people by preaching a gospel that Jesus himself did not preach. Even during the time of the original Apostles, Satan had gotten into the minds of men and started perverting the true gospel; After the original Apostles died, the Church in Rome really went ballistic and started adopting pagan ritual as part of the Christian faith. Even to the point of changing the ten commandments to suit them. Even changing God’s Holy Sabbath Day from the seventh day Saturday, to Sunday in order to get more converts who were members of Rome’s pagan sun worshiping society.
Christianity is now basically a pagan religion because of what the Roman Church had done. Even after some of the churches broke away, they still took a lot of the paganism with them. Because of the seemingly worldwide hatred of the Jews, they (Christian protestants) still chose to keep Sunday (as like the Mother Church in Rome) instead of Saturday.
Satan is deceiving the world through the Christian Church. It’s been hijacked by a Pro. Satan has once again cheated us out of our purpose for being. Salvation is not just saying your sorry,accepting Jesus as your Saviour, and claiming your “born again”. Then when you die you go to Heaven to sit on clouds and worship God all day for eternity. Or if you were bad, you would burn in hell for eternity. This is not true. No where in the bible does it say this! No where. When you die you are dead. Until the return of Jesus Christ to Rule the earth for 1000 years. Then the people who had believed, and obeyed the ten commandments (all of them including the 4th) will be “born again” immortal into the Kingdom of God on earth (not heaven) to Rule with him for 1000 years. After that would come Judgement Day for the rest of the dead. At that time they would be shown the Words of God, “the books” will be open to them, and the Book of Life would also be opened. Some will be hearing the Gospel for the first time. Then they get to choose. The ones who still reject God will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and be destroyed. (The only ones who burn in eternal hellfire are Satan and his demons….because they are spirit beings.) Humans do not have an immortal soul, immortality is a Gift from God. You can choose it or not choose it. Its not forced upon you.
That was the gospel that Jesus preached, not the stuff you hear today, about sending them (churches) money to sow your seed, and God promises that you’ll become richer than you ever dreamed. How dare they do that. They make it seem like God is some kind of Genie in a bottle that you just tell what you want and he has to make it so.
I hope that each one of you will come to know Him. Here is a website I found that has helped me learn alot. All free
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org
There’s plenty of reading material available, all the questions that have been put forth in this blog can be answered there
May God Bless you, and keep you in His Hand
Comment by Linda— 16 November, 2006 #
heey guys great argument i want you guys to rate my pic of this subject now k?
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Comment by tyso— 11 December, 2006 #
Hitler killed the wrong people he should have shot people like you
Comment by spongebob— 18 December, 2006 #
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Comment by pink taco— 18 December, 2006 #
“Hitler killed the wrong people he should have shot people like you”
Funnily enough, I’m ethnically Jewish…
Comment by junaman— 18 December, 2006 #
“Don’t waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don’t throw your pearls to pigs! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you” (Matthew 7:6, NLT).
While believers are not to judge others (Matthew 7:1-5), Jesus warns us against a complete lack of discernment about people’s attitudes toward the gospel—what is holy. These unholy people are those who, when presented with the gospel, treat it with scorn and contempt. The futility of teaching the gospel to people who do not want to listen is as futile as giving pearls to swine. Such people will only tear apart what we say. Pigs do not realize the value of pearls; all they know is that they cannot eat them, so they spit them out and then trample them into the mud. Contemptuous, evil people cannot grasp the value of the gospel, so they scornfully cast it away. We should not stop giving God’s word to unbelievers, but we should be wise and discerning so as not to bring scorn to God’s message.
I will pray for you…
If you ever happen to have a sincere interest in exploring factual evidence for Christianity, I would recommend you read “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. He himself was an Atheist at one time.
Comment by John— 20 January, 2007 #
“The Hierophant’s Proselytizer Questionnaire”
Woah, that’s a lot of questions! I don’t suppose you’ve even tried to find answers for any of them yourself? I’ll answer them as soon as I have time but as there are so many and I’m in my final year of uni (so have lots of work), I can’t promise it’ll be very soon. Anyway, thank you for posting them. I always enjoy answering questions because it helps me to learn more about my faith.
Right, the original question was “Does god exist – does it matter?”. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think it was CS Lewis who said:
“If God doesn’t exist, Christianity is of no importance whatsoever. If God does exist, Christianity is of absolute importance. What it can never be is slightly important.”
I think he makes a good point. Even if you come to the conclusion that God doesn’t exist, it is still important to consider what you believe and why, and find out about it, rather than just going along with the crowd as so many people seem to.
Another point: You originally said about “all the hate” carried out in God’s name. Now do you really believe that everyone who does something in God’s name is a Christian, even if it’s something bad? What you don’t seem to realise is that some people would use God’s name to try and make people think that whatever they were doing was ok. Please don’t judge Christianity on what some non-Christians did while using God’s name to try and justify their immoral actions.
Oh, and speaking of hate, what’s with all the insults on here? They don’t help anyone. I have plenty of non-Christian friends and family and we respect each other’s beliefs and when we do talk about beliefs, we do so in the format of sensible discussions, not insults. Why can’t everyone here do the same?
Comment by Mooncinder— 11 February, 2007 #
hi. i dont think any of this is right. maybe we should just believe what we believe and leave it at that.there is no point bickering about all of this. its just a load of people swearing at each other. respect each others beliefs.i agree with mooncider.even though i am a christian i cant defend what i believe yet. i need to understand more about it. im not going to come back onto this website (you may be happy to know) but take into consideration what me and mooncider have said.thanks
Comment by someone— 11 February, 2007 #
FOOD FOR THOUGHT…
I’m not religeous by any means.
I have no “home” church I go to because I choose to sleep in on Sundays…
I do not believe that communion is needed, anymore than obtaing my fill of the suggested food groups per day —- however,
but,
I DO belive that many of the bible messages are a great foundation for how we should deal with our other man. So much so, I wish to expose my daughter to it when she gets a little older.
I think it helps create a mor educaed “voice” in your head during the decision-making times…
So,
I’m not sure who, what or why GOD is important?
The part I take away from it all, is there are good “foundation-pricipals” which can by taught for us human-beings to aid in friendship, compassion and how to take the “high road” when things get difficult.
I’m willing that if we looked back at all the different (some even extinct) religions we will find a slew of teachings which pass a long many great and motivitional meanings to live our lives.
We just need to filter out the bad blood from one religion to another.
The last thing I’m trying to promote is “World Peace”. It’s a nice idea but we have a few roadblocks in our way.
So I pose a question to the group:
HYPOTHETICALLY:
If “positve” and “motivational” teachings from ALL RELIGIONS were combined together, would this not be the “morality” we need to better mankind?
…Worldwide?
Comment by JulianHood— 27 February, 2007 #
I liked your argument up to where you called churchgoers cultists. I go to church for a lesson on spirituality, not to kiss boots with a cult figure and kill gay people! I’m gay myself by the way. as for radicals, just as there are radical christians, there are radical atheists too. Just today there were six atheists at my bus stop trying to get me to “convert” and handed out pamphlets. Don’t be stupid. otherwise you’re just another bill’o'reilly.
Comment by Gay christian— 14 March, 2007 #
yes i agree too.
Comment by abomination~desolation— 31 March, 2007 #
Every thing in this life has got a name.So if the name exists the object exists.So if the word god exists then that means god exists.I f the word god didn’t exist that means that the object god wouldn’t exists.If this is confusing try and think of something that exists with out a name. plz reply
Comment by god— 7 May, 2007 #
To Anon,
Comment by Stormy8ish— 18 May, 2007 #
To Anon, I disagree. I like to hear people say these things and this alone proves this is incorrect because you said “no one wants to hear your opinion. I’m not alone, many agree with are the same. if you don’t want to read this (and thats what it is or you wouldn’t have said anything) then don’t….Put simply…Go fuck yourself.
Comment by Stormy8ish— 18 May, 2007 #
To God, What you said acyually makes since but that would mean that there are many One Gods. And some don’t think of him as object or person but simply as an ideal.
Comment by stormy8ish— 18 May, 2007 #
I think the best proof jezus existed is that our date’s are refered to it ( before and after christ )
Secondly God is a title , so yes jezus can be a god .
And i dont think reading the bible is all bad , it does has some helpfull hints , on how to live a good life , such as love and respect for your fellow man .
I dunno , could be handy instead of intollerance and bad things humans do .
I wouldnt blame the Lord on what humans done , like the crusades and the inquisition .
Also the bible doesnt tell anything about if you been a naughty boy , you burn in hell.
It does mention Gehenna ( wich means the 2nd death )
Silly nonesense if you lived your life well you get into heaven is a fairytale to , people who do think that i sugest you read your bible again , Namely the bible says the dead arnt aware of anything , Like lazarus jesus friend , the bible doesnt tell he saw a shiney tunnel or what ever .
Why there is suffering in this world , easy Satan is the god of this world , even in the bible jezus acknowleges it when satan takes him on top of the mountrain and offers jezus all the kingdoms , for one act of worship.
One last piece , if the pope sits on the earthly throne for god , why does the vatican own weapon factories and oil refineries , and alot more .
Makes me wonder why jezus cleared the temple square of merchants .
So i hope i inspired you people to read a bible , who knows you might learn something .
Comment by Chaos-Elf— 23 November, 2007 #
Please remember that I’m not against Christianity or reglion in general (although I must admit sometimes I am, because religious conflicts are, obviously, the root cause of much evil in our world).
Religion involving any chosen deity on the right side of morality, will have positive emotional impact on our lives.. Any postive belief system which parallels our intrinsic sense of right and wrong, will result in positive emotional (and physical) impact.
Fear of social and divine retribution, as well as the self-imposed retribution of guilt (sometimes to a suicidal degree) can be and is, for many people an overwhelming deterrent to thorough investigation and objective evaluation of the Scriptures. Religion is handed down to us throughout the generations. Predisposition to blind acceptance of Christianity and other religions is in our genes. It’s instillled in our psyche from an early age.
This is the same fundamental reason Muslim extremists adhere to an inhumane doctrine of terrorism and torture. It’s been handed down, to them, across the generations since the 7th Century inception of Islam, when Muhammad went to the Mountain, smoked a little grass, then decided he was going to be Allah’s right-hand man. It’s what has been taught to them, and this is germane to understanding why so many in our society accept Christianity without objective scrutiny (it’s what has been handed down to us, and unquestioning acceptance, of it, is the right thing to do).
I’m not arguing against the virtuous teachings of Christianity; just its false premise (the Bible’s divine origin).
When I was finally compelled to investigate the existence of God, I began with an online resource, an electronic version of the Bible. I searched for the word *kill*. Don’t remember how many there were, but only one instance used in the context of advocacy would have been too much, for me (Thou shalt not kill?). Not what I had been led to believe God was all about. A rather telling observation, in my book, is that killing in biblical times was not exactly atypical as the way of their relatively lawless world, and this is exactly the kind of thing that would be found in writings of that era.
God, in my opinion (and according to the Bible, itself), is supposed to be perfect in every way, in addition to other concepts presented, like omnipotent, omniscious, etc., not an advocate of war and/or murder. How could He advocate killing any of his children, whether they’re his chosen people, or not. Chosen people? A god playing favorites? Not what I had been led to believe God was all about.
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour (this is only one of the contradictions found in the Bible, but one of the more significant and telling, me thinks).
I just always figured this book was the word of an omnibenevolent, supernatural being. Now, and only after cursory examination, it’s apparent to me that this book was written by someone(s) with all the same personality characteristics (jealousy, rage, etc.) of an earthbound mortal (the evidence is in the Bible), not an omnibenevolent superpower. Truth is, Jehovah shares personality traits with some of our world’s worst war-mongering, murderous, and barbaric dictators of totalitarian regimes, including Muhammad (the evidence is in the Bible…and the Qur’an).
Ever notice how demanding of worship Jehovah is?
Ever notice how demanding of worship third world dictators are, with their pictures on billboards all over town?
Aside from the virtuous teachings, what makes Jehovah any different from a terrorist? Both are apparently egomaniacs who go around killing at will (even their methods are essentially not all that different – the evidence is in the Bible), and the supernatural one of that pair demands, ‘Do as I say, not as I do’.
As big a worship-demanding ego as God apparently has, seems pretty clear to me if anyone like Muhammad was attempting encroachment/trespass into Jehovah’s turf (which Muhammad did in more ways than one), Jehovah would’ve snuffed this imposter out in a heartbeat. Support for this kind of postulation is found in the Scriptures and is not merely a product of my bias.
So I think to myself, how am I expected to believe in such a god who is not so perfect and god-like by my standards, but more to the point about my contention with the divine status of the Bible, how am I supposed to believe in (much less worship) a god who is not so perfect and god-like, as claimed in the book itself. Anyone’s answer to that question first requires disregard for the above-mentioned contradictions (and others found in the Scriptures), but is also dependent on their own definition of that man-made word “God”, and just as important, how they justify to themselves, that definition. Mitigation is especially needed if you allow Him any imperfections, and if you do allow Him imperfections, then you’re in direct contradiction with the Bible’s own portrayal of God being perfect in every way.
As worship-demanding as God is protrayed, why the faith game instead of just presenting the rules and consequences, accompanied by a convincing display of His existence? (would result in a much higher incidence of winners, for the “game”). Assuming that any type of game would be an appropriate method for God to enlist followers, wouldn’t an omnibenevolent god want to maximize the number of winners, and minimize the number of losers who will spend eternity in Hell? “Hell” – sure seems, to me, a rather cruel punishment for an omnibenevolent god. Me thinks if I were an omnibenevolent superpower capable of engineering such a complex world as ours, I could surely devise a plan guaranteeing myself plenty of worship, without simultaneously condemning any of my children to eternity in Hell. On the other hand, if I were a mere mortal of the biblical era, and recognized the need for spiritual law & order in an, otherwise, spiritually lawless and chaotic society, a Heaven or Hell concept would be a convenient and powerful incentive, indeed.
To me, it couldn’t be any more obvious that these books (Qur’an and the Bible) were written by mere mortals without any external, divine influence guiding their hands. In the case of Muhammad, his wife made the rather telling observation of how convenient his (Muhammad’s) revelations always were to his own religious and personal goals. In the case of the Bible, there was apparently a similar motive at work by at least one of the biblical authors, which resulted in a “chosen people.” In other words, what mere mortal-type biblical author would not have selected his own kind as the “chosen people?” What god would direct members of his flock to murder other apparently not-so-favorite members of his flock? Not exacty an equitable and omnibenevolent god, in my book.
The positive value of Christianity in our lives and society is obvious, but the Bible as being the work of God, as God is represented in the book itself, just doesn’t hold up to objective scrutiny. There are also publications out there (at least one that I know of, authored by research partners “Freke & Gandy”), that reveal discovery of credible information (referenced with appropriate bibliography), relating the existence of a historical, spiritual figure whose story roughly parallels and predates the story of Jesus. The story of Jesus plagiarzed? This kind of stuff the press doesn’t dare touch for obvious reasons, and many Christians won’t entertain even only the possibility of such blasphemous tales, but will dogmatically deny pure logic and evidence, rather than risk that kind of upset in their lives, especially for those so entrenched in the lifestyle. Fear of social stigma and/or divine retribution, as mentioned previously, can also be an overwhelming factor, of course.
Okay, at the risk of sounding a bit trite, the question I have for you is how do you answer what must surely be a familiar question: Why does God permit the destruction of life, limb, and landscape with weather calamities, when according to the Bible, He has the power to stop them? (not to mention the suffering of victims’ loved ones for the remainder of their lives).
Please leave your answer at: http://whengoodmendonothing.wordpress.com
Comment by justplumducky— 4 December, 2007 #
well, there are different interpritations to God and I think this itself is a prove of God’s existence. like it was said “proving the non existence of something is a prove of its existence” because u cant deny existence of something which is not there and mind doesnt know what is it. then there is the point of knowing the real charecteristic of God, You said its irrellivent which I dont agree for a reason that if you start beleive in God and you came to know what that God is ordering you then You have to follow his order. unless he doesnt give a care of that.
You have given a statment which needs a prove when u said that non of God is true and you have given the example of jesus. Jesus is considered as only Prophit in my relegion at least.
the point is first step in this discussion is to beleive either there is a God or not. next one is to know what is the charecter of that God even for the sake of interest.
then if you came to know what really God should be, then you have to know what he wants from you. if he doeesnt want any thing then its ok if not then u have to know what he likes and what he doesnt like.
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Comment by Tramadol (ultram) 100 Mg, Hexal 90tab $189— 15 February, 2009 #
check out this website it is prophecy some which are now coming true compare this page to current day events you read this webpage and tell me that god isn’t real because if you say he isn’t then you are blind and deaf. and if you aren’t blind or deaf then you need to ask the holy spirit to help you understand how to read
http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/prophecy.htm
Comment by adam— 12 May, 2009 #